Good afternoon. My name is Paul Zarbach, a staff member of UNCW’s Randall Library. Today is the 14th of August in the year 2002. We are in the library of UNCW. And we are going to interview Mr. Joseph E. Dunn.

Joseph F. Dunn.

Joseph F. Dunn. Mr. Dunn, when did you go into the military? Where did you go into the military, and why did you go into the military?

(laughs). Okay. I was born and raised in suburban Pittsburgh, a little town called Swissvale. And so uh.. I attended uh.. Saint Anson’s Grade School and graduated, and Swissvale High School and graduated. Then I went to the University of Pittsburgh from 1936 to 1940. And while attending the University, I participated in the Reserve Officer’s Training Program, that’s called ROTC. So when I graduated in June of 1940, I received my Bachelor’s Degree in business administration, as well as a Second Lieutenant’s commission in the uh.. United States Army Reserve. Well, that was on the 12th of June. And on the 15th of June I volunteered for active service and entered active service three days after graduation, and entered service as a Second Lieutenant, and was uh.. immediately assigned to Fort Monroe, Virginia. And I continued on active service until 1968. Now, why did I join the military? I- I- I’m sure it was because of the influence that that ROTC program had on me and the officers who were there uh.. assigned to conduct the program. They were very fine gentlemen, and really made a very uh.. impress- a good impression on me. And uh.. I thought, well, if uh.. if they can succeed in uh.. the military, why don’t I give it a chance? Why don’t I give it a shot? Because jobs were scarce and it was an employment opportunity. And I am somewhat of a history buff, so I was- I was delighted to study military history. And I’m sure it made me pa- more patriotic than- than otherwise. And so that’s reason uh.. for joining, employment opportunity and patriotism and impressed- and favorably impressed by the officers that I encountered uh.. in doing ROTC work. Uh.. When I entered the service, went to Fort Monroe, uh.. the first thing they did was send us through a uh.. a officer’s school, which was uh.. four or five weeks long at Fort Monroe. And then uh.. after we completed that, uh.. uh.. there were- it was a marvelous experience because uh.. uh.. there were ROTC students uh.. in my class from across the nation, some from Nevada, some from California, some from Maine, some from Pennsylvania, some from Louisiana, Alabama, Virginia, and so forth. And uh.. we had a marvelous time uh.. swapping stories as young lieutenants will do. And I met a- a wide variety of uh.. fellows my age from different universities across the nation. So I said, ”Boy, this is great.” Well, after we finished the course, we were uh.. all spread across the country do different units and I happened to wind up in the unit at Fort Monroe, right there at Fort Monroe.

What activities took place during that period of time at Fort Monroe? What educational activities?

Okay. The uh.. uh.. Fort Monroe was the center for Coast Artillery Corp activities. We had- the Coast Artillery School was there, which included two sections, one for the enlisted specialists, and one for the officers. So it was a- it was uh.. the major uh.. mission of Fort Monroe at that time was to support the school. Uh.. I was an antiaircraft artillery officer. Coast Artillery was the basic branch, but when we finished this class, uh.. we could see the Army was not interested in Coast Artillery anymore. They were interested in antiaircraft artillery. So we were trained as antiaircraft artillery officers. And when I joined my unit at Fort Monroe, it was the 74th Antiaircraft Artillery Regiment. And I was assigned uh.. to uh.. that regiment and I stayed with that regiment uh.. until uh.. February of 1942, uh.. when I was transferred to Camp Davis. And at that time, the artillery school, antiaircraft artillery school at Fort Monroe, had been transferred to Camp Davis. So when I joined, when I came to Camp Davis, they assigned to as a faculty member at the school.

Camp Davis is located?

Here in North Carolina up at uh.. Holly Ridge, a huge temporary uh.. camp uh.. uh.. site, and primarily for training antiaircraft artillery units because we could use Topsail Island for a firing range. And it was a magnificent firing range, and we use it extensively. Well, I got to Camp Davis in February of ’42, and I was immediately assigned to the Officer Candidate branch, and I was a battery commander, which meant that I had to handle uh.. officer candidates who were taking the OCS course. I think the OCS course at that time was 12 or 14 weeks. And uh.. I uh.. remained uh.. at Camp Davis doing that sort of work. And then half way through, uh.. that uh.. experience, I was uh.. uh.. sent to command the General Staff College at Leavenworth. Came back, and they made me a battalion commander. And so...

And your rank is now?

Uh.. Captain. Still captain. And uh.. uh.. during the period uh.. that uh.. I was here in Wilmington, I had met a local girl and uh.. in 1943 we were married. And uh.. then I was transferred uh.. to uh.. back as a student to the Antiaircraft Artillery School for more advanced training. And then we left Fort Monroe and were- uh.. Fort- Camp Davis, and were assigned to Fort Bliss, Texas, where I was made a mem- I was made the logistics officer, S-4, of the brigade, of the new brigade that was training at Fort Bliss.

Did you wife go with you to Fort Bliss?

Oh, yes. Oh, I was able to take my wife uh.. to Fort uh.. Bliss, and we lived there. That was our first- that was our honeymoon post. And I had quarters on the post, uh.. very comfortable quarters on the post. And it was a delightful experience. Well, I remained there with the brigade about six or eight months, and we were transferred to Louisiana maneuver areas. I was able to take my wife there. And uh.. while I was there at the Louisiana maneuver areas, they transferred me to uh.. the 103rd antiaircraft artillery group headquarters.

The year is now?

It’s- it is now uh.. 1943, winter, ’43. Uh.. So that I could get promoted. Uh.. So uh.. in uh.. May of 1943, I was promoted to major. Stayed with that unit uh.. all through the war. We uh.. left uh.. we left the States sometime- I was a- I was the CO of the advance party. They way they moved troops in those days, overseas, if uh.. if you moved a battalion overseas, you uh.. had to have an advance party of three or four officers and five or six enlisted men. And they went a month ahead to uh.. get things squared away for your uh.. logistic support, once upon- upon arrival in the theater. Well, I was the CO of this advance party. There was another captain and two enlisted men in the group. And we left uh.. uh.. uh.. New York uh.. in the summer of uh.. ’44. I think it was uh.. uh.. about September or August, I guess. And we uh.. we were uh.. we were a bunch of- it was a- you know, uh.. uh.. it was the port of embarkation at New York harbor, and thousands of troops were going through. And uh.. uh.. we were alerted. We had to report in every day. We stayed there on the post. Stayed uh.. I don’t know how many days we were there. Finally they said you are going tonight. So we were set tonight, and darkness set in, and we got in trucks and we took- or went down to the wharf and put in a ship, uh.. all at dark. And uh.. I was assigned to this room, and so I looked on a piece of paper and I found a room. Got in the room. There were ten other majors in the room. We were sleeping in canvas bunks about this far apart up the wall, up the wall, up the wall. Anyhow, we got up the next morning, found we were on the Queen Mary. And uh.. we went to Europe on the Queen Mary, and the Queen Mary was so fast that they didn’t have to have a- have- there was no need for an escort. So we were on the ship and it took us only five days to get to Gerick, Scotland.

I’m sorry. Where? Where in Scotland?

Gerick, Scotland. Gerick, Scotland. And uh.. we were there. We were on the ship uh.. I don’t know, uh.. two days I guess. And we found out that we had a very important uh.. passenger on board, Winston Churchill. He had been to Quebec, with his wife and staff, for a big international conference. And this is the way. He didn’t want to fly. This is the way he got back to England. And he paraded around the deck, smoking his cigar and waving to everybody, and put the two fingers up. And he had his wife with him, and his wife was about six or seven inches taller than Winnie, Winston. And Winston looked like an old man. Course we were much younger. Winston looked like an old man compared to his wife. His wife was very statuesque and very attractive looking, and looked much younger than he was. Anyhow, uh.. the uh.. I was then a major. And uh.. when we went to eat at that- that- that dining room, I found out that the, what they call field grade officers’ mess, majors and up, had the first class dining area on the Queen Mary, and the original civilian staff. And those waiters were marvelous. And we had the linen and the crystal and the silver and, yes, sir, and no, sir, and bowing and scraping. And I never had such good meals all my life. And the- we weren’t allowed to wear our nameplates. We couldn’t have our nameplates on.

Why?

Uh.. S- Security. And uh.. so we were- nobody had any nameplates on, so we- the wait was all ears. All wanted to know what your name was. So they’d ask you. And they wanted to know, so they would try to trace whether you were from Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Ireland, Scotland, England and so forth. And uh.. if you were English or Irish or Scots, you got better service. So uh.. I figured that out after two or three days. And the fellow next to me with a big Polish name. And uh.. they asked me my name. I told them, I said, “Well, now you’re either Irish or English. If you’re uh.. if you’re English, you’re probably from the family of- of Hatters in London. And if you’re Irish, I don’t know where you’re from.” Well, I said, and I looked at him and I could see he was English. I- “Well, let’s- let’s make it English.” I got good treatment. Well, we got uh.. we got to Scotland, and we got on a train, and I remember when we uh.. got off the boat, Winston, the- the ship was so large it couldn’t dock. We had to be lorried in. So we all got in these boats and they rode us in. And we got to the railroad station and got on the train, and, of course, the first thing we did was take the windows down. And first thing you know, there were a lot of- of Scotch children with their mothers on the platform, little fellows, little boys and girls. And they had the cutest brogue. And they had those big, red cheeks. And uh.. they would shout, “Have you got any gum, chum? Have you got any gum, chum?”

Wow.

We just threw our- we opened up our packs of uh.. chewing gum and we threw them all out separately, and it uh.. they uh.. looked like snow coming down. And the children, of course, were delighted. And the mothers were scolding them for asking the American soldiers for uh.. a handout. And we got on the train. We got to South Hampton, and uh.. uh.. then loaded onto a uh.. destroyer escort vehicle, and over to France we went, and to Omaha Beach. Of course, there was no fighting at Omaha Beach at that time. And we uh.. went up the hill to Omaha Beach, and there we stayed until our unit joined us. And then when our unit joined us, we uh.. went to Eupen, Belgium, and joined the First Army Artillery uh.. uh.. group. Uh.. In the arm- First Army Artillery, there were a lot of field artillery units, antiaircraft artillery units, and antitank units. Uh.. We were there at Eupen for Christmas, 1944. And uh.. we were uh.. the- the- the Battle of the Bulge started uh.. on uh.. middle of December. And we were in there. I guess we got into position about first of November. And we were uh.. we were controlling three antiaircraft battalions. And we had some success at shooting down Germans airplane, but there weren’t many German airplane.

What kind of weapon?

We had.

What kind of antiaircraft weapons did you have?

We had 40mm guns, and uh.. 90mm uh.. antiaircraft canon. Our primary targets were what they called the V-1 missile. Well, uh.. uh.. it’s a uh.. rocket, V-1 rocket. And it was a easy target to knock down, because it was unmanned. But it fry- it flew what they call a rectilinear course. No- it’s straight line. So you could get your guns on it and lead it, bang it down. And I guess we were doing that for I don’t know how many weeks. And then the Battle of the Bulge happened. Well, the Bulge happened and uh.. fortunately we didn’t have to move, because the Battle of the Bulge happened about four or five miles south of us. The northern’s flank of the Battle of the Bulge was about, I guess, three or four miles south of us. And as I remember, the Germans were very successful initially, because they had the weather on their side. It was overcast, and our Air Force couldn’t operate.

And it was cold?

Oh, it was cold. And uh.. but fortunately we didn’t have to move. So that part didn’t affect us so much. But the uh.. flight of the V-1 rockets, the number was somewhat reduced during the Battle of the Bulge because the Germans were putting all their effort in the Battle of the Bulge. And I remember vividly when the skies cleared the whole- it was a day after Christmas, or two days after, a big, beautiful blue sky. There were no clouds at all and man, our Air Force had a ball. We could see them going in there. We were that close. We could see them diving in there and just murdering those Germans.

Where were you quartered at this time?

Well, the way...

Was it under canvas or?

No. The way they worked it was uh.. the uh.. Belgium people moved out of their homes and we occupied- we occupied uh.. a marvelous mansion uh.. for our headquarters, and for uh.. for the officers to sleep. And we had two other houses for the enlisted men to sleep in. They were not in canvas. We were in- in a very comfortable house. No heat, but we uh.. we- we were uh.. we had the doors closed and windows closed, and we had our kitchen working and so forth. So we were not uncomfortable at all. Uh.. We were not under canvas.

Well, what about rations?

Plenty. We had marvelous food. Uh.. It kept coming down all the time. We were in what we’d call the combat zone, so the rations came in automatically.

Okay.

And we had uh.. we even had canned beer come in. And we had cigarettes, and we had cigars, and we had uh.. great food, plenty of it. And uh.. so we were very fortunate. Our unit was very fortunate to that extent. Well, that was the Battle of the Bulge, and then when the Bulge was- when we recaptured all that ground, we moved up to the Rhine River. And uh.. I remember we were uh.. still in Eupen when we got across the Rhine.

How do you spell Eupen? Do you remember?

E-U-P-E-N. E-U-P-E-N. Eupen uh.. Belgium.

Thank you.

And uh.. then we- we got to the Rhine and then we got across the Rhine, and that’s what they call the Battle- we called it the Rhine Crossing. Battle of the Bulge, and Rhine Crossing, two campaigns. Uh.. I was a duty officer that night. I got a call from McKay saying Joe, wake the battalions, we’ll be moving. We got across the Rhine. And that’s how it happened. And then it was a- a- a- oh, yeah, foot race all the way. And then the Germans started to surrender like mad. And we wound up in Central Europe, central Germany, and they called that the Campaign of Central Europe, Central European Campaign. So because of those three campaigns, my unit was awarded three battle stars, which you will find on these ribbons. Uh.. The war stopped there. I remember when we got the wire from headquarters, cease operations effective, what, the 8th of May, or 5th of May, or something like that. So we all celebrated. And uh.. but we uh.. two days later we got the message, start training for Japan, my unit. So we- some of the officers left and we got new officers in, and some of the enlisted men left. We got some new enlisted men, and we started to train. Uh.. All of our retraining uh.. for June, during June and July. And then, of course, the 6th of August, or something like that, we got a- we got a message by our radio people- had one radio tuned in to the British BBC, another radio tuned into Switzerland, commercial. And darned if we didn’t get the word from Switzerland about Japan surrendering before we got it from our headquarters or the BBC. And I could- I can still see that communication man of ours running across the dadgum field to the colonel’s tent. No, it was the colonel’s house, because we were still in a house, uh.. and telling him the Japs have surrendered. Isn’t that funny you can- what you can remember? Anyhow, uh.. After that, then we did celebrate uh.. because we knew we didn’t have to go to Japan. And then uh.. discipline became a little bit of a problem, because everybody wanted to go home. Uh.. But uh.. uh.. the uh.. uh.. uh.. the- the authorities uh.. Eisenhower was the big guy uhm.. over there at the time, and he had a fellow by the name of Brigadier General Somebody McAuliffe, who was uh.. assigned to control all the deployment of troops. So we had a wonderful Stars and Stripes paper, came out every day. And every issue, uh.. Brigadier General McAuliffe said this. Brigadier General McAuliffe said that about your turn to go home. Well, I didn’t go home because I was a regular officer, and I stayed in the Army of Occupation. And uh.. I was transferred to uh.. senior headquarters, Eisenhower’s headquarters. And he had left and uh.. I guess that was uh.. around December. And then in March, that was ’45. In March of ’46, I got- I was uh.. I was uh.. received what they call R-and-R orders, rest and recuperation. And they sent me home for 45 days.

Where was Eisenhower’s headquarters, when you?

Frankfurt. Frankfurt.

Okay.

And a fellow by the name of McNarty, four star Air Force general, had taken over from Eisenhower. Eisenhower had returned to the States to become Chief of Staff. Joe McNarty uh.. was his name. Anyhow, he was a big Irishman, and a very friendly type of guy. And I worked in that headquarters uh.. well, when I came back with- to the R-and-R to the States, I picked up my wife and child and I had never seen my child. My child was 18 months old. And we went back on the second uh.. family ship to Europe. Uh.. I stayed with uh.. the senior headquarters until I was- my time was up I think in March or April of ’40- of ’48.

What was your duty assignment?

I was the personnel- in the personnel department, G-1. G-1 officer.

Now, the military forces are shrinking are they? The people?

Very much so.

People are rotating back to the United States?

Yeah.

But new people are also coming in?

Yeah. Yeah. But s- because I was- didn’t get to Europe until uh.. August or September of ’44, I was not eligible point wise to rotate. So I stayed in the Army of Occupation. And then I did get- my points were due when I returned to the States in uh.. March or April of uh.. ’46. Yeah. No, wait. Uh.. No, it wasn’t that way. It was- I stayed- I don’t- I didn’t come back until uh.. ’47 or ’48. I forgot. But I stayed there for a long time in the Army of Occupation with my family. And then uh.. when I came home, uh.. uh.. I was assigned to Fort Sill, and then to Fort Hood. And then in the Fall of- uh.. September of ’48, I was transferred uh.. to uh.. the University of Minnesota uh.. by the Army to pursue a graduate degree in economics.

Okay. Let me take you back to Germany for just a minute.

Yeah.

What were your observations of the social structure, of the nutritional level, any observations you made of the German population. You were there, end of the war, and then slowly the economic plateau began to rise. What was it like? What did you see?

It was terrible, absolutely terrible. The uh.. German people had nothing. Uh.. We had uh.. we lived well. We had a nice house. And uh.. we had three servants. We didn’t pay ‘em a cent. The Germans were supposed to pay ‘em. They couldn’t eat uh.. in uh.. with us. They had to go and eat in a common mess hall. We had two lovely girls, and a uh.. a man that did the yard and uh.. kept the furnace going. We uh.. didn’t see much of him, but we saw a lot of the girls. Now one girl lived with her family in uh.. uh.. what the name was that uh.. little town outside of uh.. Frankfurt where we lived. Uh.. Anyhow, it’ll come to mind. And the- the- the other girl had to live with us, because she hadn’t a home. So she lived up in the upper deck on the- she had her own private room.

And they spoke English?

Enough.

Yeah.

And they- that was uh.. that’s a good point. They- the girl- the girl- the people that worked, the German people, a lot of German people, went to work for the Army obvious- obviously. And they didn’t want to speak German. They wanted to speak English. So we taught them English because they could get a better job. But the- the populace was poverty-stricken. The uh.. the destruction was immense. We traveled extensively because we- I- they sent my car over to me. I had my own car. Paid ten cents a gallon for gasoline. So we had all this domestic help, so my wife and I traveled around, saw all of Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Italy, uh.. Czechoslovakia. All those countries, France. But the amount of destruction in Germany was terrible. It really turned me off. I think because of that I’m a- I’m a peacenik. Uh.. The just destruction, terrible destruction. Uh.. Buildings down. Uh.. Roads closed. I mean, it was uh.. and the Germans had no food. They had to go to garbage cans and try to get the food that the uh.. Americans would throw in the garbage can.

Were the German civilians, uh? enraged?

They were not hostile. No, they were not hostile towards us. They were not. Uh.. The- the German- the average little guy, little German guy liked the uhm.. liked the Americans. Uh.. uh.. That was my impression. Now that didn’t mean that, say, that some of their so-called leaders that lived, were uh.. uh.. that way. But uh.. the average German uh.. had the uh.. a uh.. uh.. I got the feeling that they had uh.. down deep they uh.. they saw us as being very lucky individuals. We weren’t any better than they were, but they saw us as lucky individuals to be Americans, and to have uh.. won the war. Uh.. But uh.. I didn’t- I didn’t notice any hostility about the little fellows. Now some of the men that I ran into, some of the uh.. mature men who had lived through the war, were a little abrupt. Now not so the women. But uh.. some of the men that I ran into were uh.. uh.. German uh.. kind of uh.. hard talking, uh.. hard talking people. Uh.. But we didn’t have- I didn’t have much dealing with ‘em at all, because uh.. we were- I dealt only with the uh.. uh.. American troops. I didn’t have any dealings with uh.. the German uh.. population as such. Uh.. I was- I was uh.. uh.. uh.. Of course I was much younger then. But as I look back on it now, as uh.. uh.. age and wisdom, it- it- war is a terrible, terrible thing. War means destruction. And uh.. gosh, I saw it. I saw that destruct- I lived right in there for something like 18 to 24 months in that environment. So every time I’d go to work, every time I’d make a trip out, regardless of where we went, and we had wonderful facilities. The Army lived good. Uh.. uh.. You saw that, you know. It finally dawned on you. Of course when you were much younger and having your own social life and a professional life, so uh.. it didn’t dawn on you. Dawned on me much later on, 25, 30 years later. Well, I came back to the States, to Fort Sill, then up to Minneapolis for a year, and then back to Fort Monroe as a personnel officer, uh.. in the G-1 section of what they call the Army Field Force. At that time, that was this- that was the senior headquarters of all the Army in the United States, right under the Pentagon. We had a four-star general and he reported directly to the Chief of Staff in Washington, D.C. I stayed there four years and uh.. went to uh.. ship uh.. Asia, for three years, Korea, uh.. Okinawa, Japan. And uh.. back

What years were you in Asia?

Uh.. The first time was ’54 to ’57. Then I came back to the States, and uh.. was at Fort Leavenworth on the Commanding General Staff College staff and faculty uh.. for three years with my family. And then I had to take what they call a uh.. hardship tour. I had to go overseas without my family. My time was up. My rank was such. My grade was such, and all that sort of stuff, so they sent me to Vietnam. And I was at Vietnam in ’60 and ’61. I came back from Vietnam.

And what was your duty assignment in Vietnam?

I was what is known as the senior advisor to their Commanding General Staff College. I just finished three years at our Command General Staff College as a faculty member, so when I went over there, I was specially assigned uh.. to that job uh.. as the- as the advisor to their staff and faculty.

How did you find the Vietnamese officer corp? I know, I’m calling for a generalized statement and there’s going to be shades of however you respond, but just.

Uh.. There was uh.. disloyalty. Uh.. For instance, I knew personally three faculty members, Vietnamese. Personally I knew three faculty members that when they tried to uh.. a coup d’etat was called, uh.. Zem was the president. And they tried a coup d’etat and tried to dislodge him. And uh.. we found out later on that one of the ring leaders that tried to dislodge him was a faculty member that I used to talk to everyday. And this faculty member had a brother-in-law on the faculty. And uh.. during the uprising he was killed, the brother-in-law. The coup d’etat failed, and this fellow that I knew that was one of the leaders, had fled to Thailand. So he got away. He got away with his- he got away. He wasn’t killed.

And what year was that? That was sixty?

Sixty-one, sixty.

Um hm.

When they first- the first coup.

Hm.

Uh.. uh.. On uh.. Zem. Well, I uh.. I- I was uh.. I was with those uh.. Vietnam off- Vietnamese officers all the time I was there. They were either students or faculty members. So I got to know uh.. quite a few of ‘em. And I got the sense that they were very sensitive because they didn’t know which way the top brass was going to go. And, of course, their life was on the line obviously. So I uh.. They- they didn’t talk to me about it, but I sensed that. And then, of course, uh.. uh.. later events proved me correct because these uh.. fellows that tried to unseat Zem, one- one was killed and one had to flee the country. And uh.. it was so bad uh.. that faculty was so bad, uh.. it was- was so suspicious, so suspect, that after that coup attempt, Zem moved the whole faculty out. Moved the whole school out to uh.. uh.. Delat up in the mountains. Moved ‘em out of Saigon. Couldn’t stand them.

Banished them.

Banished them. But Delat was delightful because it had the temperature of Switzerland. So ha ha, the faculty and s- uh.. uh.. the school left Saigon, which was uh.. uh.. awful humid. It was tropical. And moved to Delat. And my last six or eight months over there was delightful, uh.. wonderful weather. And had a golf course so I was able to play golf and so forth. I came back to uh.. uh.. the States and uh.. was assigned to uh.. oh Professor of Military Science at Loyola College in Baltimore. That’s called Loyola Ba- Maryland now. And I was there for three years. And when I was there, I went to uh.. their night school and got another graduate degree. Uh.. From uh.. Maryland I was transferred back to Germany. Now, the reason I- and this- the- the uh.. Vietnamese war was heating up. See, when I was there in ’60 and ’61, we weren’t taking casualties. We didn’t start taking casualties about ’64, when we started to move troops in. The reason I didn’t go back to Vietnam, I’d been there. So I got credit. And also it was a hardship tour, so my rank and grade and so forth said, “Okay, Joe, you’re entitled to an accompanied tour.” That means I could go overseas and take my family with me. So I said, Okay. Send me back to Europe, ‘cause the children were in high school and I wanted to get the travel, uh.. get them to see all of Europe. Uh.. So I went back to Europe from ’64 to ’67. And I had my children with me, and we traveled all over Europe. I had my automobile. And we got passes and leaves and I took ‘em to Berlin to see the awful, awful Berlin Wall. It was a- it- I- I couldn’t believe it when I saw it. And uh.. uh.. thank God I had my- thank God- thank heavens I had my wife and children with me, ‘cause they could see it. And uh.. we- we went up and down that Wall. We went from one end to the other. And uh.. we went to- we had uh.. Check Point Charlie. We could- they would let us in to see East Berlin, and it was a ghost town. It was the most discouraging thing I ever saw. These big buildings empty, nobody around, nobody around. It was pathetic. And there it was, communism versus democracy. And on the other side was West Berlin, what was marvelous, prosperous. But the uh.. uh.. parks were operating. The stores were operating. The uh.. underground railroad was op-- the subway was operating. It was just marvelous. Everything was great. And you go across the Wall and see that.

It was like a moon-, a moonscape or something.

Yes. It ju- it was oh, just terrible. But my children it. And I think that was good. Uh.. And uh.. my wife saw it, and I saw it. That was good because you can’t take that away from it. And that was the Cold War at its uh.. epiphany. I mean, its highest point. Now the Cold War was something. I left Europe in the Spring of ’48, on my first tour. And the Berlin airlift started November of ’48. That started the Cold War. And all during my service, even when I was in Vietnam, even when I was in Tokyo or Korea or Okinawa, the Cold War was a big issue with us, mighty big issue, ‘cause we were training all the time for an eventuality. Thank gosh it never happened. But uh.. we were reading the reports and we were training this and training that, and uh.. it was uh.. uh.. a terrible thing that Cold War. And I remember uh.. I was uh.. you know, I think the Wall came down in ’89 or ’87, and the Soviet Union imploded it, destructed it, something like 1990, two or three years later. Uh.. I couldn’t believe it, ‘cause I’d been tensed up all those years. And even when I retired and started to teach here, I retired in ’68 and taught here ‘til 1980, the Cold War was still on my mind because we were still faced with that thing. And I couldn’t believe it when I saw that Wall coming down. I started to lead a new life. Really did. Uh.. Then uh.. when we came back from Germany in ’67, I went for a four or five months’ tour in uh.. South Carolina, as an advisor to their National Guard. Then I retired and joined the faculty here, and I joined the faulty here in January of uh.. ’68. I retired from the service and joined the faculty here, and stayed on the faculty until uh.. 1981. I retired and went to the golf course and played. I’ve been still playing.

Off camera you and I had a little discussion, and it’s the only one I’ve ever had with over a 119 hours of interviews. We had a little discussion about the feelings that you have when you leave the military. Could you reflect on that a minute? What was it like? “Very well,” you know, “thank you colonel.” They shake hands and you’re out.

Uh.. I- I suppose- I didn’t- I- I- I was lucky. I didn’t have much time to think about it. Uh.. And- and uh.. because I uh.. you know, I- I put my uniform in the closet. And the next day I was in the classroom teaching a bunch of students uh.. in- in my uh.. academic uh.. activity. And it was- it was a- it was a challenge to get the material together and get- get the lecture together, and get- become acceptable as a college professor, that I was fully engaged and I didn’t have time to think about leaving the service. And uh.. fortunately, uh.. when I did uh.. uh.. when I did return here and start to teach, to Wilmington uh.. we were uh.. well received because my wife was a native. So I had no trouble getting into the clubs and meeting people and so forth. And the children went right into high school and right- My two daughters attended the University here and graduated, uh.. from this university. Uh.. And that uh.. and I did meet a group of retired officers. There were 15 or 16 couples. And we re- we- we limited to that number so they could fit into the house. I could entertain 30 people in my house, and the other fellows could entertain 30 people in their house, with uh.. adequately. So we kept it to that number. And uh.. these were Coast Guard artil- these were Coast Guard officers, Air Force officers, Naval officers. We had a good mix, and Army officers. And uh.. we- we had a good time uh.. mixing uh.. and getting. They- We helped each other get adjusted to private life. And uh.. actually I stayed with that group for something like 30 years. And that eased the uh.. transition. And also what eased my transition was I was very busy. I was learning my new profession; teacher. And I stayed with that profession until uh.. 1980, when I retired from the faculty. We had to retire in those days at 65, and when I went right on the golf course, and I’ve been there ever since.

Well let me uh, I’m going to challenge you with a question. You’ve had such a wonderful experience, and I wonder if you could make a comparison and contrast between the various Asian officers that you met. You met the Vietnamese. You said you were in Korea. Well, you must have met some Korean officers. There was the...

Japanese officers I met.

There was Civil Defense

In Japan.

Whatever they called them. How would you compare and how would you contrast? Now I know it’s not a very scientific sample, but I’ve never interviewed anybody else with that spread of experiences that you had.

Well, uh.. of course, uh.. uh.. the few general uh.. German officers I met were very distant. I remember one time uh.. when I was over there and the war was just over, the Germans had uh.. surrendered. They wanted to come surrender to the Yanks more so they wanted to surrender to any of the other ones. So we had no problem. Uh.. They would come in and we’d put ‘em in a big field. They had a big field out there where they played soccer. So we had ‘em there, one thin strick- one thin strand of barbed wire around. So I went over one time to look at it, and uh.. was walking along there, and uh.. smoking a big cigar, you know. And uh.. all of a sudden this voice came from within the group, in this perfect English language that, you know, the ver- very cultured English that you hear the English people, some English people use. It was marvelous language. “Major, you don’t have to worry about us. We’re not going anywhere.” (laughs) I said, “Okay.” So I left. But uh.. the uh.. the- the uh.. I got closer, I guess, to the Vietnamese officers than I did uh.. the Japanese or the Korean, because I worked with them for, you know, 18, 20 months, uh.. on a daily basis.

Um hm.

Uh.. They were uh.. I found ‘em to be very interested in uh.. in their profession. They were- they made a big effort to uh.. to learn and to dress right and speak properly, and- and conduct themselves uh.. professionally. Uh.. The uh.. uh.. the thing I- the thing that got me with respect to Ja- Japanese, I- I guess I saw more of their working type civilians. And I saw more of the German working type civilians than I did of either officer group in those countries. And I was very impressed with the work ethic of the Japanese. Oh, they loved to work. And they did a good job. And I was so impressed with the Jap uh.. Germans the same way. They had a marvelous work ethic and I thought to myself uh.. later on, I said uh.. “As long as we keep Japan and Germany on our side, I don’t see how we can ever lose, because they love to work and they had good standards.” They wanted- they wanted- anything they did, they wanted to--

Quality control was…

Yeah.

Right there.

Quite so. So I was uh.. I was impressed, I guess, with Japan’s work ethic and with uh.. I was not impressed, that impressed with the work ethic of the Vietnamese, because it was a tropic uh.. climate, and you had to move awful slow. And so uh.. it- it- you could see that that was their problem to get any work done. It was very, very slow. Uh.. But uh.. that was not so with Japan or with the Germans, ‘cause they had a good climate. But they had good work ethic and they just worked at it. And uh.. I was impressed with that.

Now I’m going to ask you a kind of a spoofy question. Just we’re really talking to your family now. Assume for the purpose of our discussion that you have been banned from the United States. You have to live in some country other than the United States. Of all the places you have been, could you name the country, would you name the country and would you name the town?

Hm. (pause) Well, yes. It would be Geneva, Switzerland. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I’ve got… Do you have anything else to add to your?

Uh..

Because I’m hiding the question that I’m going to spring on you here in just a minute.

I tried to uh.. I- I uh.. I’m of an age and uh.. I- I guess when you get this- this age, and you- you start to think, you- you try to uh.. develop frames of reference that will help you understand what’s going on globally and domestically. Uh.. Fortunately, I had a lot of international service. I was total of five years in Asia, and seven years in Europe. And I had- and I traveled, and I was lucky to get around the globe. Uh.. And I’m- I’m very much uh.. aware that uh.. we’re faced with a global environment. And it- the- that environment, that global environment is going to increase in intensity and will impact us uh.. more and more as uh.. the years go by. Uh.. Therefore, my uh.. my- my uh.. hope and my uh.. reference point is peace, global peace. I have that in terms of uh.. a triangle, and that’s at the one angle, equilateral triangle. That’s at one angle. That’s one tri- one angle. The other angle is war. Civilization has been cursed by wars since the word one. It’s there. It’s there. That’s grief. That’s greed. That’s avarice. And the other- that’s one angle. And the third angle is preparedness. We are uh.. uh.. and when I say war, a parenthesis right after it, means destruction. And preparedness right after that uh.. in parenthesis is avoiding war. If you’re prepared, the chances of someone taking a- going to war against you, is much less than if you’re not prepared. So I- I try to visualize uh.. that triangle in my mind so that uh.. I never- when I- when I think of war I think of peace and preparedness. And when I think of preparedness I think of war and peace. And I always- I- I don’t try to isolate one of those three.

So it’s a reciprocal.

Yeah. The impact of these big time.

I’m going to purposely call you Colonel, because I want to set a certain tone here. Colonel, does anyone ever win a war?

No. No.

And am I correct? Wars don’t stop the day that the shooting stops.

That’s correct. Civilization has been cursed with wars. Some reason or other uh.. for some reason or other, we- uh.. civilization has been unable to resolve differences uh.. peacefully. Uh.. I think that uh.. uh.. it’s a- it’s something that civilization has not been able to solve so far. Hopefully it will some day uh.. solve it, uh.. uh.. because there’s always hope. Uh.. But the uh.. the- the uh.. uh.. That’s- that’s my equilateral triangle. And uh.. that’s what I try to keep in mind when I- when I think about it, and when I study these and when I uh.. hear uh.. these issues uh.. uh.. that are confronting our country domestically and internationally. The uh.. I guess that’s it. Uh.. I would uh.. uh.. close on that.

I wonder if you’d hold up the--

I want to get this on camera so that it doesn’t… (Mr. Dunn holds up a framed collection of medals and ribbons) I see the Bronze Star. I see the Army Commendation Medal. What is the yellow one?

Oh. These are campaign ribbons.

Okay.

Uh.. Just a minute. I’ve forgotten. I’ve got ‘em right here. (pause).

Go.

Okay. The yellow one that you see there, that’s the uh.. American Defense Ribbon. And the next ribbon is the American Campaign. And the last ribbon there is the European-Asia Mid-East, and you see the Battle Stars on that one.

Um hm.

Uh.. Down below here, that is the uh.. World War II Victory Medal. That’s this one. And uh.. the next one is the Army Occupation Germany. The next one is National Defense. The next one is the Armed Forces Expedition Service. And the next one is the Vietnam Campaign. And the ones that you see below there, those three ribbons, one is the uh.. one is the French Medal of Honor. The other one is the Med- uh.. Belgium Leopold the Second, and the other one is the Belgium Croix de Guerre. That’s those three down here.

If you had to go back in the service again, would you go back in? I’m going to dismiss age as a condition.

No.

Why not?

(pause) I’m too much of a peace man.