Interview of Joseph Cassidy, USMC
Transcript Number 097

CONDUCTOR: OK, now, I'd just like to introduce Mr. Joseph Cassidy. Mr. Cassidy served with the United States Marine Corps during World War II. And he's going to share with us his experiences during the war, and his training and a little bit of everything. And I want to thank you for being here, Mr. Cassidy.
I'd just like to start off, if you could share with us, the branch of service that you were in, your unit of assignment, and your process of coming into the service. Were you drafted, did you volunteer? If you could just share with us a little bit about that.
Mr. CASSIDY: I volunteered for the Marine Corps in September of 1942. I graduated from high school in June, and had a small job, and then I went in the Marine Corps. I was never...wasn't drafted and I hadn't yet gotten a draft card. I enlisted in the Custom's House in Philadelphia, September seventeenth, and was sworn in and went to Parris Island for basic training. After Parris Island, I was assigned to Marine Aviation and went to Cherry Point, North Carolina. From there I went to Naval Air Station, Jacksonville to ordnance and then gunnery school. After that I was sent to El Toro, California, and joined a torpedo bomber squad. Had operational training and went overseas into combat from there.
CONDUCTOR: Why did you choose the Marine Corps as your branch of service?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, in our particular family, both of my grandfathers were regular Marines. My step-grandfather was in the Marines. I had two uncles in the Marine Corps, [unintelligible] in the Marine Corps, and after one of my grandfathers died, my mother who was a young daughter, and her brother were actually put to work at the quartermaster depot in Philadelphia, making uniforms to help the family. So we were sort of a Marine Corps family.
CONDUCTOR: When you say "regular Marine," could [you] share...
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, what I mean is, there's regular and reserve. They were regular Marines, and they were career Marines - thirty years.
CONDUCTOR: When you entered into the military, what were your...as far as, [unintelligible] and you've already shared with us your duty assignments, but your occupational specialty - your job in the Marine Corps?
Mr. CASSIDY: My job in the Marine Corps was air gunner, radio-gunner. I operated the radio, the radar, and had a gun, flew in a TBF - torpedo bomber.
CONDUCTOR: And your rank; what was your rank?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, when I enlisted, I enlisted as a private. After going through ordnance school I made PFC, after gunnery school I made corporal. During World War II, I was promoted to sergeant. After I got qualified during the Korean War I was promoted to staff sergeant. That's as high as I went. 
CONDUCTOR: OK. What did you enjoy the most...were the ranks more challenging as you went along?
Mr. CASSIDY: Oh, yeah, yeah. But the higher the rank, the more privileges
you had. Your club is better, you have privileges you don't have, for instance, when you're a private, or a PFC; when you start to get staff rank say, it gets pretty nice.
CONDUCTOR: And what was your occupation before you entered the service, and where was that?
Mr. CASSIDY: I was basically just a high school graduate. But I did get a job in the New York shipbuilding, New York Shipyard in Camden, New Jersey. I worked there for three months. But I was only seventeen, and I had to work in the office so I wasn't...couldn't work out in the yard where I could make some money. I worked in the blueprint room in the office. And I worked there for three months, then went into the Marine Corps. But basically I just had an occupation.
CONDUCTOR: Your first career...?
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah.
CONDUCTOR: OK. You indicated that you enlisted...[unintelligible]...your thought process on enlisting...
Mr. CASSIDY: You know, when you're young like that, of course that was World War II. You have to remember World Was II was a popular war. We were involved, we were attacked, everybody was involved. Civilians worked in the defense plants and the young men and women going into the armed forces. So there was an awful lot of volunteers, as well as the draftees. They had the selective service act, and from eighteen on up, they had to register and they were getting drafted. But it was the thing to do. So after high school, myself and the people I ran around with, we all joined the service - some branch - Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and in my case it was the Marine Corps. But, it was the thing to do. There was some patriotism involved, but it was also...everybody was going into the service. So you'd have felt awful if you didn't go into the service, I think.
CONDUCTOR: So you think the draft was fair, a necessity?
Mr. CASSIDY: Oh, sure, sure.
CONDUCTOR: Could you describe that process by which you were inducted into the military?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well,...I went to the Customs House in Philadelphia. I lived in New Jersey, a small town - Audubon, New Jersey. Went to the Customs House where they had the recruiting office, and I had some papers. I had to get permission from my parents to enlist because of age. Of course, they signed. My father was happy. My mother, she didn't want me to go in the service. But as long as I was going in the service they wanted me to go in the Marine Corps.
So I went up to the Customs House, back in the seventeenth of September, had my physical. they swore me in, took my picture, put me on a train to Parris Island. Still had civilian clothes, of course. And we were put on a B & O train in Philadelphia. And then they stopped at Baltimore, Washington, Richmond, different places down the line, picking up more recruits. Took us to Yemassee, South Carolina, which is out in the boondocks. Put us on these cattle cars. These great big open-bodied trucks took us to Parris Island, and that's where it all started. Issued you uniforms, got you a haircut, physical, another physical, assigned you to a platoon. And you had your training there.
CONDUCTOR: What training did you receive during basic training, such as drill ceremony, rifle marksmanship, bayonet, medical training. And describe what that was like, and your trainers, your drill instructors were like.
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, of course, first it was close order drill. You know, we were a bunch of civilians. We didn't know anything about marching. So we were assigned to a platoon, then you were, according to size, and I was small. I was only five foot five. And I was in the last rank of the platoon, me and two other guys, Kelly and ----and we were small. And then they had these big, six-foot five guys out in front. So we basically ran through boot camp trying to keep up with the rest of them. They called us feather merchants, because you know, we were small. And the DI's were tough. You know they didn't take any baloney. You got disciplined, but it wasn't brutal. I didn't find it brutal, and I was just a kid. But you did what you were told. I mean you had pith helmets on. And there were times, if you were out of step or something, and they came up , and they'd drive that down over top of your head - your eyes. But they didn't hurt you. And if you were punished or something they'd break the whole platoon out, and you'd do these rifle exercises and hold the rifle and all. Now, it was hard for be because I was a little guy. But, again, it was not brutal. 
But they taught you basic drilling. All that is, is to teach you to react to an order, instantly. That's how we get discipline. And they had discipline. Then they taught us the other. They taught us all about our rifle, and our bayonets, and we had tactics in the field. And then, eventually you went to the rifle range. I think we were out there for close to a month. And you start form the very basics. Learning how to sight your weapon. Learning how to, for instance, when you shoot your target, if it's so many inches to the right, how many clicks, or how much windage you put on it to move it to the left, or to raise it. They taught you, you know, the different positions. You had kneeling, sitting, prone, and off hand, and how to use the sling. And at the time I went in, my basic weapon was a Springfield 1903, bolt action. And being small, I had, for rapid fire prone, I had to scant the piece, throw the bolt, throw the round in the chamber, and as a result, I use to move right across the firing line about four or five feet every time. But you know, that was one of the things. Now eventually, we were armed with an M-1, which is a Garand, which has eight rounds and it's semi-automatic as compared to bolt-action. You just pull the trigger, and after you shoot your eight out pops the clip. You put another one in so you had much more firepower with it, with the M-3. But an M-3 was probably a more accurate weapon. And then, they covered, you know, all phases of training. And then, eventually you graduate. You had a graduation ceremony. You've taken tests, and based on these tests, and other things, that's how they assigned you to different units. For instance, some stayed right in ground troops - the infantry. Others get go to schools. You had aviation schools, you had metal smiths, ordnance, radio, and mechs. And usually from ordnance you go into gunnery. But you could from the others, but you didn't usually do that. Some went on to O.C.S. afterwards - they made applications. And some went into, we called poster Marine sea schools. You know, they'd be aboard ship, or they'd be in embassy duty, and like that. So they were all different assignments. Then, if you, like for instance, were air; people in the air wing would go to Cherry Point from Parris Island. If you were stayed - we called them linecompany - you'd go to LeJeune. But, then up at LeJeune, you know you could be a machine gunner, mortar man rifleman, artillery, you know, all different things. Just like in the air wing.
CONDUCTOR: OK. Maybe... could you share with us what it was like on that graduation day when you earned that title "Marine?"
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, to start with, you know, you're...they have instead of just your regular drill instructors, you have, in our case, a Marine Gunner, that's a Warrant Officer. And they came out and inspect you. They ask you questions about your rifle, all that sort of thing. And so you don't want to miss any. You want to get the answers right. So you're a little nervous because of that. And they were strict if your rifle wasn't clean, or if your bayonet wasn't clean. I can just remember one kid had a ... he pulled his bayonet out and it was dirty. So the OD, ..er...the DI took it, stuck it in the ground, in sand - it was all sandy - and kicked it over and covered it all up, you know. That sort of stuff, they'd do to you.
CONDUCTOR: Clean it again.
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah, clean it again. So, you weren't hurt, you were never hurt.
CONDUCTOR: Do you feel that your training you received in basic was practical, adequate? And then later on in your service did you reflect back on it and say that it got me ready to go?
Mr. CASSIDY: I never forgot how to use a rifle. In the Marine Corps you qualify, re-qualify the rifle every single year, every Marine. Every Marine is basically a rifleman. Even if you're in aviation or no matter where you are. You always have a rifle. Depending on your rank, you could have a carbine if you're a staff sergeant. But you re-qualify every year. And that means you have to go to the range. And you may ... usually it's a week after that And I can remember when you first went in, if you got sharpshooter, you got three dollars extra a month. And if you made expert, you got five dollars extra a month. The rifle is very important in the Marine Corps.
CONDUCTOR: And for the pocket book, as well.
Mr. CASSIDY: That was when you were only making, I guess it was about twenty-one dollars a month, when you first went in. And then it was fifty shortly after that. That's all you made.
CONDUCTOR: Twenty-one dollars per month - that was your pay?
Mr. CASSIDY: When we first went in, yeah. Then it went up to fifty for private.
CONDUCTOR: Oh, OK. Did you volunteer for any specialized or hazardous duty. And could you describe that training?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, air gunner was voluntary, becoming a gunner. That was strictly voluntary. I did volunteer for that, and as a result, I was admitted to gunnery school, and became a gunner. But if you were in ordnance or any of those other schools, you didn't have to go to gunner's school. It was just if you wanted to.
CONDUCTOR: OK. And where were you stationed to complete that training, and how long was that?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, after ordnance school was about three months, I think. And that's where you learned all about machine guns - anything that has to do with armament on an airplane. Then after that, when you volunteered for gunner's school, that was a month. And that was also down in Florida, outside of Jacksonville. But then, once you're assigned to a squadron, then you continued - then you're being trained in-flight. You shoot at sleeves, and things like that, so that continued pretty much until you went overseas.
CONDUCTOR: When you say, "sleeve."
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah, a plane -- a tow plane pulls a sleeve and then you shoot at it. And your bullets are color coated. Some have red, some have green, so they can check the holes to see how many hits you got. Like one plane, a tow plane, then maybe about three planes would be shooting at the sleeve, or five planes, or something like that.
Planes would be shooting at the sleeve, or five planes, or something like that.
CONDUCTOR: On what weapons were you trained, and what was your opinion of these comparable weapons - Springfield and M-1. And other weapons that you trained and what you thought of them?
Mr. CASSIDY: As a gunner, my side-arm was a Smith & Wesson, thirty-eight special, shoulder holster. So I was trained - I was also trained with a forty-five, but it was heavy and it kicked. It's pretty difficult to control a forty-five. A thirty-eight is much easier. And, it wasn't an automatic, it was a revolver, so if it got wet or anything, it was easier to clean up. It was better to the gunner. And machine guns, of course, we were trained on. And I guess I mentioned the bayonet, and grenades - we were taught about throwing grenades. And I guess that's about it.
CONDUCTOR: When you were at the air gunner's school - was that - what kind of weapon...?
Mr. CASSIDY: That was thirty and fifty caliber machine guns. And either free or turret. And as far as your training is concerned, the big thing with gunnery is leading - leading the target. And the way you do that is; you'll have a range sight on your gun or, even a turret has an illuminated range sight which you see out here. And the range represents different -- how much you lead a plane that's going at a particular speed. And you - at a particular range - and you identify the range by identifying the aircraft known - the wingspan. And then you put that in the rings, and it can tell you if it's a thousand yards, or two thousand, or whatever. Then you have to lead them. And the way they teach you to do that is with shotguns. They have, you shoot skeet, and you shoot trap. And you have a ring sight on your shotgun. So you lead the target, based on the rings. And you have to get that target in your rings to make sure that its going right. Because sometimes you may think its going this way, if you're going this way actually you have to lead them down here. And that's what they teach you. They teach you a lot of that. You shoot every day.
CONDUCTOR: How long was that school?
Mr. CASSIDY: That's about a month.
CONDUCTOR: A month of just practicing?
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah, shooting.
CONDUCTOR: What kind of uniforms did you wear, both stateside and overseas.
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, you had three. Actually, you had four, but they didn't issue blues - dress blues - during the war, except if you were going to Sea School, or embassy duty. You could buy them if you wanted to. But the basic uniform was "greens," dress greens. They were dark, forest green uniforms. You've seen the basic Marine uniform, still is today. In the summer [unintelligible] in the summer you wore khakis. Your... you either had a cap with half of the bill, or an overseas cap. They were the types of headgear. Then your utilities - we called then dungarees - they weren't camouflage like they are today. They were a light green color. And they were twill-like, sort of. They were just dungarees, almost like your jeans today, only green. And then you wore boondockers. They were your working shoes. They came up over your ankles. But, ... you had dress shoes as well. 
CONDUCTOR: But now, the aviators...is that what you wore flying?
Mr. CASSIDY: When I flew I always wore dungarees. And pilots wore...they had flight suits, and usually in a carrier in the Navy - their gunners had flight suits. But, see we were up... we were land-based, and we would be in tents. And it'd be mud. And so lots of times you had leggings. You know - your dungarees; you'd have leggings on, and your boondockers - which were your shoes - and your utilities. And you usually wore baseball type caps. Radio gunners, down in the compartment where I was, we didn't have helmets. We'd have earphones.
CONDUCTOR: OK. What was your opinion of chow if you had cooks, and did you eat C-rats, or K-rats. And if you were stationed overseas or in basic, could you just tell us all about what the food was like. And when you were overseas, did you have a lot of opportunities for hot chow? Or was it almost always K-rats?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well, in the States your main meal was mid-day. And it was always good. They had good food. You had to get a little used to it in Boot Camp. But, it was basic good food. You always had [unintelligible] breakfast was good. You had eggs and pancakes and things like that, usually sandwiches [unintelligible] or something
at dinner. But food was good in the Marine Corps. 
Overseas, like for instance, when you first got to a place...like we were living in pup tents on Guam when we first got there. And what you were eating are K-rations. We used to call them a boxed lunch. It would be just a box, you know - had a can of this and a couple of cigarettes, and crackers, or something like that in it. And a cup of coffee. That's about what you got. And they had one for breakfast, one for lunch, and one for dinner. And they weren't very good. Then you went to C-rations, which were meat and vegetables-stew and things like that. They were a little better. And after you were established, you know, maybe after things were secure, and you were just flying patrol, or something like that, and then you'd have your mess tents and all, set up. And your cooks would cook stuff. You know, chicken, and canned meet and stuff like that. The food overseas wasn't great at all. It was edible, but it wasn't great.
CONDUCTOR: How were your officers and non-commissioned officers: sergeant, leadership ... and was there anything particularly good or bad you learned about these - and specific examples - maybe even the differences between [unintelligible] maybe, the differences between, maybe, O.C.S. and a Naval Academy officer.
MR. CASSIDY: We'd have, you know, our pilots...we'd have some that were right out of colleges, and went to O.C.S. and became pilots. We'd have some that were regular Marine Corps that came up through maybe one of the academies. And, usually, the one that came through were regulars, or came through the Academy followed the book - stricter. You know, they would just follow the book to the letter. You get your other pilots, that were out of college, they were regular, pretty regular guys. Football players, and everything else. I mean they were good pilots, and everything, but they were not going to make the Marine Corps their career. And they had a different outlook on it. So they were, my particular pilot was a lawyer in civilian life. He had passed the Bar, and he was a lawyer. You know they were regular guys. You call them by - when you were in flight crew - you'd call them by their first name. [unintelligible] 
In different units...you get, the majority, I would say were well qualified. But you'd run into some that were chicken, you know. They weren't such good guys, no matter what you'd do you were in trouble. Then there were a few that they had - just because of time - they would reach a particular rank. Not so much because of ability, but because of time. But they were pretty few and far between, those others. Basically, NCO's and officers in the Marine Corps were good.
CONDUCTOR: Which officers did you have the most and least respect [for]. And there's been a term "Fragging" come to describe the intentional injuring or killing of officers by their own troops. I think probably more prevalent in later instances where that came about. But did any of that occur that you were aware of? 
Mr. CASSIDY: We had absolutely none of that. In fact, you always separated, you lived in separate areas. But, there was none of that. Even if you disliked a guy. [unintelligible] trying to kill him or anything like that - not in any outfit that I was ever in.
CONDUCTOR: How was the discipline overall in your unit, whether aboard ship or on land? What were the most common infractions and how were they punished?
Mr. CASSIDY: Well in the States, you know, there were guys that would come back from liberty late, get a little drunk, or something like that, maybe goof-off. And usually they were, they were not serious. They wouldn't result in court martial. They'd end up with extra duties. Extra guard duty, or work details and that sort of thing. Now if you got a real hard case, they end up in the brig. And they don't mess with them. And, again, there aren't many. But there's always some. And there's always guys that get in trouble. They pay for it in service. That isn't a good place to get into trouble.
CONDUCTOR: Were drinking or drugs or gambling, or anything like that a problem with any of the units?
Mr. CASSIDY: I never saw drugs. In fact we carried a jungle kit in case we get shot down over they jungle. We had a first aid kit. It had morphine surrettes in there, which you stick in your arm if you were wounded or shot. I never even heard of anybody even using one, for that, I mean for themselves, for pleasure or anything. I saw them used when a guy was shot, but, no drugs. Then overseas you couldn't get anything to drink anyhow. You know, after a place would be secured we'd get two cans of beer about three times a week, that would be it. And, ah, as far as gambling and playing cards was concerned, sure they all did it. I mean there was always some sort of a card game, but it wasn't anything major, if you know what I mean. No big time gamblers that I ever came across. I would hear about them in some outfits, but we didn't have any. We had your plain nickel and dime, or dollar, or something like that. That's the kind of poker you'd play.
CONDUCTOR: These were like R and R type activities?
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah, yeah. That's all.
CONDUCTOR: Desertions...did you ever have any occasion of desertions in your unit? Other than that - we talked of the AWOLS where folks would make it back a little bit late.
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah, occasionally they would be, you know, a...in the States a guy would get home sick, or gets tied up with a girl somewhere and that sort of desertion. In the Pacific there's no place to desert when you're on an island. So there wasn't any desertion when I was there that I know of.
CONDUCTOR: How did you spend your spare time when you were off duty. What type, or recreation...you talked about cards , were there [unintelligible] any USO shows, or Red Cross shows that came while you were in the Pacific? And what was that like [unintelligible] morale?
Mr. CASSIDY: We didn't have...we didn't have much. When we were down in [unintelligible] before we went north into combat, we had...the Bob Hope show was there. That was good. And then you'd see movies like at night. At first they were taking you somewhere where you could see movies at night. Once you got to rear areas, and after Guam was secured, there would always be a sports program set up. Like in our particular squadron, we had inter-squadron softball teams. Each of the departments would have a team; pilots had a team, air gunners, radio gunners, mechs. So we had a regular league. We'd [unintelligible]on Guam, and we had a regular league. There we had a squadron basketball team - we would play other organizations. And we had a squadron hardball team. We'd play other Marine units, and Navy units, and Army units. [unintelligible] programs, they had boxing, active sports program. And if you liked, I liked sports, I got involved in a lot of those things. And it was very important to me.
CONDUCTOR: Was that another way of physical training to keep in shape?
Mr. CASSIDY: Yes, that helps too. That's right. In the States - they used to on Wednesday afternoons in peacetime - you'd get Wednesday afternoon off. They used to call it "grab-ass day." So you'd get the afternoon off. You could play golf, you could go fishing. You could play...but it was always sports and that was part of your physical development. 
CONDUCTOR: How well did you and your fellow servicemen get along with the civilians while you were in the United States, and overseas, if you had occasion to come into contact with anyone?
Mr. CASSIDY: In the States we didn't have any...you know, occasionally you might meet somebody and be invited to their house. Or people would invite you out for diner sometimes. And...but overseas, the only ones we would ever be in contact with, that very rarely, and that would be natives. In these islands there were no civilians, they were just natives. In the South Pacific, they would be Melanesian, and up in the central Pacific they were Micronesians. And you wouldn't have much contact with them. Guam, after it was secured, they were a little more Americanized. So they had a ball team, we went to town and played their team one time. But that'd be the only kind of contact you had.
CONDUCTOR: You guys win?
Mr. CASSIDY: Yeah. But [unintelligible] had a crowd at the game.
CONDUCTOR: How would you characterize the overall health of your unit, and was medical care adequate? And along with that, what were the major health problems that you folks faced?
Mr. CASSIDY: In the South Pacific, the major health problem was malaria. And we took Atabrine every day. Which is a preventive, which is a prophylactic for malaria. I didn't get malaria down there. The guys that had been to Guadalcanal, and then went back over with us - a lot of them still had malaria. They'd get these attacks... When we went to Guam, the big problem there was Dengue fever. You get that from a mosquito also. And it just knocked you out for a week or so. We almost all had that. I had Dengue. And then dysentery is always a problem when you first go into things, because your sanitation is so [unintelligible], you know. There'd been dead Japs around, flies on them, all that stuff. Everybody would get dysentery one time or another. And they'd get Dengue.
CONDUCTOR: Could all of those...were they treatable? 
Mr. CASSIDY: Oh yeah, the corpsmen. We had Navy corpsmen to take care of our medical, and the Navy doctors. And you'd have right away you'd set up a hospital tent and if you were so sick you couldn't even get out of your pup tent, corpsmen would come over, give you some APC tablets, and a canteen of water. That was about all they could do. But, yes, they took good care of you.
CONDUCTOR: That was going into my next question...What was your opinion of the medics?
MR. CASSIDY: Excellent, yeah. No matter what you had, they'd take care of it.
CONDUCTOR: What was a typical day like where you were stationed, basically daily, sunrise to sunset?
MR. CASSIDY: In the States or overseas?
CONDUCTOR: Overseas.
MR. CASSIDY: On Guam we were doing two things, we were flying anti-sub patrol...well, our crew would fly about every other day. It'd be a four hour round trip around the island. Or we would fly past an island between Guam and Siapan called Rota - Japanese held island. And from time to time we'd go up there and hit that; we'd bomb it, strafe it, shoot up the place - something like that. So that would be...you would get, maybe posted ahead of time, who was going to fly, everything like that. Something like that would be planned ahead of time.
But the day-to-day stuff was pretty much patrol and there...we'd eat, I guess, about seven, seven-thirty. Then if you had a morning hop, you go out, fly four hours, and then you were pretty much off in the afternoon. If you weren't flying, we would have work detail, usually. And guard duty, and/or guard duty. Like the mechs and people like that, had to work a lot at night. And as a result the gunners stood a lot of the guard duty at night. We wouldn't have it every night. But you'd have it...four-hour posts...and in the afternoon, if you flew in the morning. And, you know, you could play ball, hang around, you know, or visit your friends, or read or do whatever.
CONDUCTOR: You were land based...?
MR. CASSIDY: Yeah.
CONDUCTOR: You shared with us a little bit, could you share with us, or tell us what it's like to be a radio-gunner. And what your duties were, from the point of getting ready to go out on a mission, through that mission and back?
MR. CASSIDY: Well, what we did, of course we'd be assigned, you'd know what time you were going to be there. The time the mission would take off. So you'd be over there, you'd have to check your gun, make sure you had ammunition, and it was all set. We had...we didn't have back packs for parachutes. We used chest chutes, so they were on the side of the fuselage - mine and the turret gunner's. If he had to jump out, I'd have to hand him his and he'd have to [unintelligible] I'd go out that door. So you'd make sure you had the chutes. Usually...and you'd have to know what your signal was that day...what your designation was, so you could talk to your other people. You'd know who were in the other flights, and basically what you were going to do, and how long it was going to take. Pretty much...that's pretty much it.
CONDUCTOR: Did your plane have a nickname?
MR. CASSIDY: The TBS was called the "Avenger."
CONDUCTOR: That was actually the nomenclature.
MR. CASSIDY: Yeah, the Avenger. But some guys had nicknames...we didn't always have the same plane. You'd have new models, or your plane would get damaged, or something like that. You'd have two crews assigned to a plane.
CONDUCTOR: Flying different times?
MR. CASSIDY: Yeah...
CONDUCTOR: Could you just tell us about your plane [unintelligible].
MR. CASSIDY: This is, again, and "Avenger." Alright, so it's either a TBS, which means a torpedo bomber made by Grumman, or a TBM, which is the same thing made by General Motors. It had three people in it. The pilot, up here in the screen house, the radio gunner down here where this window and door is, and the turret gunner. You can see the turret here. He had a fifty; this gunner had a thirty. We had two fifties fixed forward. We carried four rockets under each wing. This then, is the bomb bay here. This could carry a torpedo, two thousand pound, four five hundred pound bombs, or depth charges, or ten one hundred pound bombs. And so we had quite a bit of fire power.
CONDUCTOR: And what you loaded up depended on what your mission was?
MR. CASSIDY: That's right. And, of course, your ordnance people would take care of that. They'd have it loaded, which [unintelligible] we were supposed to be using.
CONDUCTOR: And, how many crew members were there?
MR. CASSIDY: There were two crew, and a pilot, so there were a total of three. Two gunners, one pilot.
CONDUCTOR: Okay. Were any of the other gunners - not the radio-gunner - trained in any way, or if anything happened to the pilot.
MR. CASSIDY: Ah...we couldn't even get to the pilot. there was no way... I could actually sometimes crawl up there and reach [unintelligible] and tap him on the shoulder. But you could never get into his place. No way. The turret and I, turret gunner and I...we could go back and forth. So I could operate the turret, or he could operate my gun. 
CONDUCTOR: [unintelligible]
MR. CASSIDY: Yeah, we couldn't change places with the pilot.
CONDUCTOR: [unintelligible]...thank you for sharing.
MR. CASSIDY: And this, incidentally, was the same type of plane that President Bush was shot down in.
CONDUCTOR: Oh, okay...
MR. CASSIDY: Ah, I don't know the details of that, whether he bailed out, or made a water landing... but his two gunners were lost.


[THIS IS THE END OF SIDE ONE OF THE CASSETTE]