Interview of Alvin J. Banker
Transcript Number 046

This interview is being conducted on December 20, 2000 at 2:00 p.m. at the Barbee Branch Library in Oak Island, North Carolina. Being interviewed today is Master Sergeant Alvin J. Banker who served in World War II with the 51st Defense Battalion and the interviewer is Steve Heffner and we're about now to conduct the interview. 

INTERVIEWER: Mr. Banker, would you give us your full name and address please?

BANKER: Alvin J. Banker, 719 Four Point Court, Bolivia, North Carolina.

INTERVIEWER: What's your date of birth, sir?

BANKER: December 10, 1923.

INTERVIEWER: And are you a veteran of World War II?

BANKER: Yes I am. 

INTERVIEWER: Could you tell us where you were and what you were doing about the time the war broke out in December of 1941?

BANKER: I was visiting a friend's house in New Orleans, Louisiana, on a Sunday afternoon. I'll never forget the evening that it happened when President Roosevelt mentioned about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

INTERVIEWER: And were you married or single at the time?

BANKER: Single.

INTERVIEWER: Going to school or working?

BANKER: Going to school.

INTERVIEWER: What kind of school was that?

BANKER: High school.

INTERVIEWER: Where was that?

BANKER: New Orleans, Louisiana.

INTERVIEWER: Okay and how old were you when the war broke out?

BANKER: 18.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, were you living with your family?

BANKER: Yes I was.

INTERVIEWER: Parents?

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: What did you do immediately after the outbreak of war? Did you enlist or did you have to wait awhile? 

BANKER: I volunteered for the Marine Corps on the 16th of July 1942, shortly after the 19 year olds had to register for the draft.

INTERVIEWER: Why did you choose the Marine Corps

BANKER: Because it was a new thing for colored boys, Marines, men I should say, it was an opportunity that I could not pass up. I always admired the Marine Corps and it was an opportunity for me to join and I volunteered on the 16th of July 1942.

INTERVIEWER: And where did you go for induction?

BANKER: New Orleans, Louisiana, and from there, I went to Camp LeJeune, North Carolina for boot camp.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, and how long was boot camp?

BANKER: Our boot camp was two months because we trained on unforeseen circumstances. As you know, prior to 1942, there were no blacks in the Marine Corps and we were segregated in a camp set aside from the white camp which was in North Carolina. The white Marines were trained in Parris Island. We were trained at Montford Point Camp, Camp LeJeune, North Carolina which is part of Camp LeJeune, just outside of Jacksonville, North Carolina and all of our instructors were white. We trained there. The battalion was formed. The troops began to come in.

INTERVIEWER: The Marine Corps was segregated at this time?

BANKER: Yes it was.

INTERVIEWER: Were you the first black unit to be inducted into the Marine Corps?

BANKER: I was one of the first. I was in what was known as the special duty platoon. This platoon consisted of cooks, butchers, barbers and bakers. This is what I was told when I went to the recruiting office, that's what they needed first. In the beginning, since it was a new organization, they never before had anything like this, so first of all, it needed this to start the camp off. We were told where we would be going and that's how it started.

INTERVIEWER: And you slept in barracks on the base only with fellow black Marines.

BANKER: There were 124 fiberboard huts for our barracks. That was our building area and of course, wood buildings for mess hall, administration buildings, quartermaster and things like that.

INTERVIEWER: And how many men trained with you for basic training in Camp LeJeune?

BANKER: In my platoon, there were about 25 of us. We were in a special duty platoon. We trained in the mess hall and we also trained out in the field. We cooked in the morning and after the noon meal was served, we went to the barracks, showered, changed, put our utilities on, put our rifles, belts and bayonets and go out in the parade field and our drill instructors drilled us until supper time which was around 5:00. 

After that time, after chow, we went back to the barracks, picked up our weapons and went back onto the parade field and drilled until it was dark, after which we would go in, shower and go to bed, hit the sack. Reveille would be early, 5:00 a.m., and we'd roll out, do our physical exercise, go to the mess hall for breakfast. Right after breakfast, we'd go back out on the field and drill until around 10:30, shower, put our other uniform on and go to the mess hall and cook and the other watch would go out and they'd do the same thing.

INTERVIEWER: Did you train on weapons like all the other Marines?

BANKER: Yes we did. We trained on the rifle range, we trained with the .22 rifles for familiarization and for qualification was the Springfield rifle known as the 'O3, which was a bolt operated rifle and that's what we used. We had that in the beginning. Later on, long after we completed boot training, I was issued the M1 rifle because it was a much better rifle than the 'O3.

INTERVIEWER: Now while you were at boot camp, you say it lasted two months...

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: What was your rank?

BANKER: Private.

INTERVIEWER: Do you recall any experiences, good or bad, that stand out in your mind during that two month period about the training?

BANKER: The training was hell (laughter). Pardon my French, but believe it or not, they said the Marine Corps was tough and believe it or not, it was tough.

INTERVIEWER: Would you say it was any tougher than the white Marines were undergoing on Parris Island?

BANKER: I don't think so, no.

INTERVIEWER: Same training?

BANKER: Same training because our drill instructors were from Parris Island. They were volunteers to come to Montford Point to train. To get these guys to come up there to train, they promoted them, they elevated them to a rank to come up to train us because as I said before, we were segregated and it was really hell for both of us.

INTERVIEWER: Those were sergeants, drill instructors?

BANKER: Drill instructors and officers, all were white.

INTERVIEWER: Were you subjected to any discrimination during this period of time that you can recall on the base?

BANKER: We were segregated from the main base and segregation was all around us, on the base and off the base. And even with the drill instructors. They trained us, but still they had a separate area where they slept. We had our area where we slept.

INTERVIEWER: Well that's true of the Marines and other places too.

BANKER: Yeah, right.

INTERVIEWER: All right now, at the end of the two months, you were now, you had finished boot camp.

BANKER: Right.

INTERVIEWER: Did you receive any training in your ultimate specialty or just in basic?

BANKER: No, the training I got was right in the mess hall. The white cooks taught myself and my fellow Marines how to cook Marine Corps style. I did not know how to cook.

INTERVIEWER: You had no prior experience in cooking?

BANKER: No prior experience except for cooking an egg at home and I messed that up (laughter).

INTERVIEWER: So you were trained in cooking in huge quantities I assume.

BANKER: In huge quantities because the troops were coming in all hours of day and night and we were required to feed them when they came in.

INTERVIEWER: Oh you mean after boot camp...

BANKER: Right, see I was promised by the recruiter that after my basic training, I would be sent to cooks and bakers school, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Well I never did see cooks and bakers school.

INTERVIEWER: You didn't?

BANKER: No. I went to school, when I went to school, there was mess management school and that was the end of World War II when I went there.

INTERVIEWER: Mess management after World War II.

BANKER: At the end of World War II, I went to mess management school at Fort Benning, Georgia.

INTERVIEWER: Let's go back to boot camp now. The two months are up, you've learned some cooking and how to be a Marine. Then what happened?

BANKER: I got promoted to PFC and stayed at Camp LeJeune for quite a few years.

INTERVIEWER: For years?

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: That was your first assignment as a cook at Camp LeJeune for the recruits that came in?

BANKER: Right, right, and I worked my way up through the ranks after that, PFC, then made corporal and sergeant and so forth and so on, but I could not outrank my white Marines. I had to be one rank below them.

INTERVIEWER: You mean the fellow cooks? There were white cooks too.

BANKER: Right and if he was a sergeant and he was ready to be promoted, and they wanted to promote me, they would promote him to staff sergeant and then promote me to corporal or sergeant whatever, but I could not be on equal ranks with him.

INTERVIEWER: How long all together did you stay at Camp LeJeune?

BANKER: Oh gee for several years.

INTERVIEWER: Well the entire war?

BANKER: No, let's see, World War II yes, the entire war.

INTERVIEWER: So you didn't go overseas then?

BANKER: No, not until the end of World War II did I go overseas.

INTERVIEWER: So your experience at Camp LeJeune as a cook comprises your wartime service? Is that correct?

BANKER: Yes, that's correct.

INTERVIEWER: All right. Now how would you describe the training you received, getting back to that. The training in arms and how to be a Marine, was that adequate?

BANKER: Oh yes it was adequate. We were taught hand to hand combat, rifle, bayonets, hand to hand combat, we got all the basic training that white Marines got.

INTERVIEWER: And it was adequate?

BANKER: It was adequate, yes.

INTERVIEWER: You didn't have to fire your rifle in anger so to speak during the war (laughter).

BANKER: No (laughter), fortunately I didn't. There were others that did.

INTERVIEWER: You mean some of your comrades were shipped overseas.

BANKER: Yes they did, yes they were shipped overseas.

INTERVIEWER: Any particular reason why you stayed stateside?

BANKER: Well I guess I was doing a good job. I made my rank real fast and as I said before, in the beginning, this was something new and getting in on the ground floor, you reap the harvest. 

INTERVIEWER: Of course you received leaves during your years at Camp LeJeune?

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: And you went off base? Going back home? What did you do during your leaves?

BANKER: Well on leave, I went back to visit my parents down in New Orleans and that's the only place that I went when I went on leave.

INTERVIEWER: Didn't go much into the state of North Carolina outside the base?

BANKER: On liberty, at the end of work hours, I would go on liberty perhaps to Kingston, overnight liberty in Kingston, North Carolina and sometimes come down to Wilmington. There again we ran into segregation there with the bus company, Jacksonville, they...we were segregated on the bus. A lot of times we were left standing, put the white Marines on the bus and then if there was any standing room left, we could get on the bus. 

And things were so bad, our colonel, base commander, Colonel Samuel Woods, who was the base commander for the 51st Defense Battalion, he knew what problems we were faced with so what he did, he had trucks, military trucks to take us into Jacksonville or Wilmington. They would put up a list on the bulletin board and you would sign the list of whether you wanted to go to Kingston or Wilmington and the trucks would take you. You'd put your name on a list and the truck would take you and bring you back to the base.

INTERVIEWER: This was when you were on liberty?

BANKER: When we were on liberty, right.

INTERVIEWER: And when you got into the town, did you go to the movies or the pool hall or whatever...

BANKER: Whatever was available. There wasn't much in Kingston. There was a pool hall there on Queen Street and of course there were other places around we visited. That was it and the movies. 

INTERVIEWER: Whatever amusements were there.

BANKER: There wasn't much there at the time, no.

INTERVIEWER: What about socializing?

BANKER: It was all right. The USO was there. We'd go to the USO.

INTERVIEWER: On the base or off the base?

BANKER: Off the base. There was a USO in Kingston and also one in Wilmington.

INTERVIEWER: Did you go to them?

BANKER: Once or twice.

INTERVIEWER: Get donuts and coffee.

BANKER: (Laughter) Well I don't drink coffee believe it or not. I like milk and donuts (laughter). At that time, I wasn't drinking anything.

INTERVIEWER: What was the full name of your outfit?

BANKER: The full name was 51st Battery A Composite Defense Battalion and I was in headquarters platoon.

INTERVIEWER: Okay.

BANKER: That was that way for a while and then of course later on, a lot of things changed.

INTERVIEWER: Did the entire unit stay stateside or did some serve overseas?

BANKER: Some of them went overseas. Well first of all, the 51st Defense Battalion in 1943, backtrack here. The 51st Defense Battalion was all volunteers. All blacks. We were all volunteers and later as things got hot over in the Pacific, they started drafting blacks into the Marine Corps. Selective Service.

INTERVIEWER: The Marines too?

BANKER: Yes and they were trained at Montford Point. The 51st Defense Battalion in 1943, but mid somewhere around August or September, the 51st was broken up into several other units because they were drafting men into the Corps and they were coming in in great numbers then. So they reorganized the 51st. The organized the 52nd Defense Battalion, recruit training battalion, a 7th separate infantry battalion, a storage branch battalion, which is something that the Marine Corps never had prior to blacks going into the Corps, and as the recruits trained from recruit training battalion, they were sent to the other battalions to bring them up to strength. After that, when the 51st came up to strength, they were deployed and sent overseas.

INTERVIEWER: How much were sent?

BANKER: I think it was about 1200, that was the 51st.

INTERVIEWER: 1200 Marines.

BANKER: 1200 Marines.

INTERVIEWER: In this one unit.

BANKER: The 51st Defense Battalion and they went onto the Pacific then.

INTERVIEWER: And you stayed in this unit until you retired?

BANKER: I was with the recruit depot battalion, recruit training battalion. That was my base and I was at the Montford Point for a while, Montford Point camp for a while and then I was transferred out to the rifle range where we had our separate mess hall on the rifle range. 

Prior to having a mess hall at the rifle range, we used to have to take the food out to the troops even though there was a mess hall out there. That was out there for the white Marines. They had permanent barracks out there. We did not have barracks out there. So we used to go out there, they used to take the troops out there every morning. At noontime, we'd bring food out to them and of course they would come in in the evening. When you're on the rifle range, you're there all day until 4:30 and then come back main side.

INTERVIEWER: So most of the Marines you cooked for were white.

BANKER: Black.

INTERVIEWER: Oh black.

BANKER: All black, right, by this time and the white Marines were with us. I mean there were drill instructors that were training with us and they ate in the mess hall, in a separate place in the mess hall.

INTERVIEWER: So when you were a cook at Camp LeJeune, you only served black Marines?

BANKER: Black Marines and white Marines, both, yeah they ate in the same mess hall, but in a separate section. We were segregated in the mess hall.

INTERVIEWER: At separate tables?

BANKER: At separate tables, right.

INTERVIEWER: But you served to both black and white?

BANKER: Right.

INTERVIEWER: Same food.

BANKER: Same food, that's right.

INTERVIEWER: And you cooked it.

BANKER: Me and the rest of us.

INTERVIEWER: What did you cook? Give us some examples.

BANKER: Well one of the famous ones that all Marines liked was creamed beef on toast. That was for breakfast.

INTERVIEWER: What's that.

BANKER: Ground beef braised off and put in a cream sauce and served on toast.

INTERVIEWER: For breakfast?

BANKER: For breakfast with hash brown potatoes and coffee and sometimes we had pastry for breakfast like rolls or coffee cake and fruit and fruit juice.

INTERVIEWER: That was one of the things that you remember cooking.

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: Anything else?

BANKER: Eggs, scrambled eggs, fried eggs, cooked to order and things like that. Regular breakfast.

INTERVIEWER: All in big vats?

BANKER: Well we had grills, long ranges. We had sixty 30-gallon pots that were steam operated, cooked stew, heat water for cooking other stuff.

INTERVIEWER: Was there anything you particularly didn't like cooking or did like cooking? Anything harder than other things?

BANKER: Well in the beginning I didn't like it, but I volunteered and the job had to be done so I was chosen to be one of the guys that do the cooking, so I volunteered and I had no regrets because I learned a lot and I did get a lot out of it.

INTERVIEWER: Learned a lot about cooking or about life in general?

BANKER: I learned a lot about cooking, I learned a lot about life in general. I met men from all walks of life in the Marine Corps being a young man coming away from New Orleans, not a small town. But I met guys from all parts of the United States and all types.

INTERVIEWER: So in general you'd say that your service in the Marine Corps at Camp LeJeune during World War II was a good experience?

BANKER: It was a good experience.

INTERVIEWER: There were no episodes that upset you particularly during...aside from boot camp, the rigors of it, we know about that.

BANKER: With the exception of boot camp, the drill instructors were very hard on us and you must remember as I got older, I realized what they were up against. You're taking a teenager from home who had been around his mother and father for 16 or 17 or 18 years and then he comes into the Marine Corps and he's told to do something, he's going to balk and not going to do it. And of course the drill instructors, he's there to teach you discipline and he's going to teach it to you one way or the other. You're going to learn it.

There were some things that I did and I'll never forget - one is, til this day I don't like the way it looks.

INTERVIEWER: Why is that?

BANKER: Because one morning we were out for drill and it was freezing outside. The ground was hard as a rock and we had to fall out for a drill. And the uniform of the day did not require us to wear gloves so I decided to wear my gloves and I was the only one in my platoon that had the gloves on. So the little corporal, I'll never forget his name, Corporal Anderson...

INTERVIEWER: Black or white?

BANKER: White. He said to me, "Boy, what are you doing with your gloves on?" I said, "My hands are cold, sir". He did like this to me, "Step out of rank. Put your piece up beside the bulk head over there". Piece referring to my rifle. "Get me those gloves". I took the gloves off. "Did you ever play patty-cakes?" I said, "Yes sir". He said, "Well I want you to play patty-cakes. Get down on your knees and I want you to patty-cake." So the patty-cake that I played wasn't hitting on the ground. I had to get down on my knees and the ground was frozen. By the time he told me to stop, there was a mud puddle there from me pounding in the hard ground.

INTERVIEWER: With your bare hands or with the gloves?

BANKER: No, no, bare hands. That taught me a lesson - number one, gloves are not the uniform of the day and you do not - if the uniform of the day states a certain thing, underwear only, you wear underwear only regardless of how hot or how cold it is. I learned that lesson.

And many other things were taught to us because we figured we could do what we wanted to and these were the sort of punishments that were given to us. And nothing to hurt you or anything like that. Of course, there were other times when the whole platoon was punished because someone would get out of step and marching slouchy and stuff like that. In other words, they were whipping us into becoming fighting men, disciplined, and that's what I like most about the Marine Corps. And I don't regret one minute of that training.

INTERVIEWER: Did you ever get out to sea or on waters instead of land?

BANKER: At the end of World War II, I left Camp LeJeune and went to Guam and the Marianas Island.

INTERVIEWER: That was after the war? During the war, you never went out to any body of water to do any training?

BANKER: No.

INTERVIEWER: You mentioned uniform. Did you have a dress uniform too?

BANKER: Yes, we had dress uniform. We had khakis. Dress blues we did not have in the beginning. Toward the end of World War II, we could buy our uniforms. They were not issued like they are now.

INTERVIEWER: What kind of uniform?

BANKER: Dress blues, the Marines dress blues.

INTERVIEWER: With white gloves?

BANKER: With white gloves, blues, white cap, khaki trousers, khaki shirt, khaki neckties and greens. Green uniform was the winter service and khaki was the summer service uniform. And of course food service personnel when they were cooking, they wore whites.

INTERVIEWER: Did you have to cook during the entire time or did you take time off to eat during the mess?

BANKER: I took time off, the cooks ate at a certain time and sometimes before regular chow time and then most times, after chow time you ate.

INTERVIEWER: How was the food?

BANKER: It was good, very good. See the Marine Corps has a system, we have what is known as a master menu. This menu is prepared by dietitians in headquarters Marine Corps and all Marine Corps bases use that menu. You're required to follow that menu and that's what we ate and it was quite nourishing. It was very good and stable food.

INTERVIEWER: Did you gain weight while you were in the service?

BANKER: I gained a few pounds (laughter). I gained a few pounds. I want to tell you, one thing about the food. The troops gripe a lot about the food and I found nothing wrong with it myself, being a part of it and preparing it. But I found out that I don't care what you do, you cannot satisfy everyone and you'll go crazy trying to do that. But I never saw anyone throw away anything and if you don't like something, you don't eat it. We can't prepare food, you're cooking for let's say 2000 troops, you can't prepare a meal for you and a meal for this guy cause he doesn't like chipped beef on toast. He wants fried eggs. Fried eggs is not on the menu. You have to cook what's on the menu. So that's what it was like. The food, as far as I'm concerned, it was outstanding.

INTERVIEWER: Most of your contact was with enlisted men and NCO's, is that right?

BANKER: Enlisted, yes.

INTERVIEWER: And what about officers? Did you have any contact with officers?

BANKER: Yes, my officers were good. I had some good officers and I had some that were fair. The ones who came through the ranks, they were the best.

INTERVIEWER: You mean who had been in the Marine Corps before the war?

BANKER: Before the war, had been in combat and they had the experience, they had the training. A lieutenant coming out of high school or college and going to OCS for six or eight weeks and become, he was referred to as a gentleman, and he thought he knew everything, but they didn't know anything.

I had a mess officer once told me that I was getting too big for my britches because I was taking command doing what I was supposed to do. So I said, "Okay sir, I won't bother anymore." So then I told my troops, I said, "If you have any problems, go to the lieutenant and ask him". The commanding officer would come around for inspection once a week, particularly on Saturday mornings, he'd come through. He'd ask questions, he'd ask the mess officer questions. He didn't know the answers. Finally the lieutenant realized that he didn't know what he was talking about because he had less time in the Marine Corps than I did.

Then he called me to his office one day and wanted to bury the hatchet. I said that I had no hatchet to bury. He said "You run the shop, I'll sign the papers". I said "Thank you, sir". From then on, I mean I got respect from him and I gave him more respect.

INTERVIEWER: Was that your immediate commanding officer, was the mess officer?

BANKER: No, he was my mess officer. My immediate officer was my company commander.

INTERVIEWER: What rank was he?

BANKER: Captain and sometimes a major. 

INTERVIEWER: But the one you reported to was usually a lieutenant.

BANKER: He was my boss, yes. The lieutenant was my boss.

INTERVIEWER: He had overall command of the mess including the sergeants as well as yourself?

BANKER: Right, the whole mess hall was his responsibility, but mind you, he didn't know the first thing about food service.

INTERVIEWER: Well this is one particular mess officer that didn't. Did you have more than one over the three years?

BANKER: Quite a few, quite a few, but all the mess officers, they didn't know anything about cooking, most of them didn't. They were given an assignment. That was an additional duty for them.

INTERVIEWER: He's white.

BANKER: Yes, all white, naturally, all white. We could not, see during that time, if we had white cooks working with us and they could be the best cooks in the world and they wanted to get promoted and I would be just as good as they are, they want to promote me, but in order for them to promote me, they'd have to promote my counterpart, the white Marine. 

Say for an example, he's a technical sergeant, they want to make him a master sergeant and I'm a staff sergeant. They want to make me a technical sergeant. They're going to promote the white Marine to a master sergeant and then promote me to technical sergeant so I would not be of equal rank. At no time could I have the same rank that he had. 

INTERVIEWER: This was a form of discrimination in the Marine Corps.

BANKER: Yes it was and I had an incident where the mess officer from Mississippi, the mess sergeant was from New Bedford, Massachusetts and I was from Louisiana, and I was a technical sergeant and the mess sergeant, I was his assistant. He told me one day, he said, "Joe, you know I don't want you to learn how to do the books because as a rule when a white person teaches colored people how to do something, they do the job better."

I said okay. He said, "I want you to stay out in the galley and supervise the cooking and take care of the storage areas." I said "Okay, fine". Well one day, he received orders to go overseas into combat. Now he was going to give me a crash course on how to keep the books. For national standards, you have to keep the financial status of the mess. 
We had to run it just like it was a business. You have to stay within your budget and also order supplies and everything. You have to do the whole nine yards like you're in the restaurant business.

I had completed a business course before coming into the Marine Corps. So when he told me I had to learn, I went to my barracks, I opened up my foot locker and I got my certificate out and I took it back and threw it on the desk and said, "Here you are Frenchie. This is my credentials here." I said, "You don't have to teach me the books. I don't want to take your job away from you."

He looked at me. His face got as red as that book over there and the lieutenant was sitting behind his desk. He looked at me and smiled and winked at me. So out he went. A couple months later, I was promoted to master sergeant.

INTERVIEWER: Was this near the end of ...

BANKER: Toward the end of World War II, I mean things were beginning to change. The whites were being moved out and the blacks were taking over the troops, drill instructors and things like that. Drill instructors were all white also and the black drill instructors were called acting jacks. They were being trained. You know whites trained us and as they trained us, some of them were moved out and some of them stayed there until they went overseas with the units that the black units were in.

INTERVIEWER: But you stayed?

BANKER: I stayed behind, yes.

INTERVIEWER: How was discipline in general among the troops, the soldiers, the Marines?

BANKER: It was good, it was fairly good. I mean they were young guys, did a little boozing, they'd get hot-headed and fights would break out.

INTERVIEWER: Now was Camp LeJeune only used as a training base for new Marines or did it have other functions during the war.

BANKER: Camp LeJeune was a training base.

INTERVIEWER: Just a training base?

BANKER: Just a training base and our camp, like I mentioned before, the white Marines, boot camp was at Parris Island.
INTERVIEWER: Which is in South Carolina?

BANKER: Which is in South Carolina and our boot camp was at Montford Point Camp which is in North Carolina, part of Camp LeJeune.

INTERVIEWER: But only for training new Marines?

BANKER: Training and duty.

INTERVIEWER: Oh duty.

BANKER: Once you finished your training, you had an assignment within that camp. If there was a billet open for you, fine. Otherwise you'd be transferred, you'd go to a depot company or headquarters company and that's where you'd be until you were transferred overseas. Now depot companies, after you finished boot camp, so many men went to depot company, so many went to headquarters company and so on like that. They had to build up these battalions because the original 51st guys, we were scattered all around. And to build other battalions up, that's how they trained them.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Did you take any courses while you were in the Marine Corps?

BANKER: I took quite a few. Most of my courses were courses from the Marine Corps Institute.

INTERVIEWER: Where's that?

BANKER: Washington, D.C., correspondence courses.

INTERVIEWER: While you were serving during World War II?

BANKER: While I was serving during World War II, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: And what kind of courses did you take?

BANKER: I took officer's basic extension course, I took speech for instructors, squad tactics, map and aerial topography and of course I did go to cooks and bakers school at Fort Benning, Georgia.

INTERVIEWER: How long was that?

BANKER: That was a three week course.

INTERVIEWER: During World War II?

BANKER: During World War II, yes, and that course that I took, the Army method of feeding was all together different from the Marine Corps method.

INTERVIEWER: How so?

BANKER: The Army figured, they have a factor. Say for instance on bread, a meal, a slice and a half of bread per person and one pad of butter. And the Army adhered to that. The Marine Corps, we did not have it that way. We'd give a guy two slices of bread and if he wanted more, he'd come back and get seconds. I didn't have to use that formula in the Marine Corps. 

The Marine Corps formula was you would have a roll call called a muster roll, whatever...the statement comes out with the morning report. Say your unit has 500 men. You prepare for 500 troops, you prepare meals, breakfast, dinner and supper for 500. The Army method was different from ours.

INTERVIEWER: How do you know?

BANKER: Because they had a system where they weighed everything, all the waste. They measured everything and what they had for a head count at supper time, breakfast would be different, particularly on a payday. Paydays, the guys get paid, they go out, they don't eat. They don't eat supper. We had head counts see. So for instance, you have 100 men to feed, say 25 of them go out on liberty at 4:00. They're not going to be around for supper. So you can't short them for rations for the next day and when they go broke, they all come in and eat. You short them food. 

The Marine Corps, we didn't operate that way. We have a formula and we fed them according to that formula. Head count and your morning report, that's what we went by. And our food, I'd say, was the best there is. When we went overseas and we had to draw our rations from the Army, we suffered until they began to allow us to get our rations the way we were accustomed to getting them.

INTERVIEWER: But that was after the war?

BANKER: After the war, right. See they had an all together different system from the Marine Corps. Even during the war, the system was different. Army and Marine Corps food service was all together different.

INTERVIEWER: Did you have to cook all three meals, breakfast, lunch and dinner?

BANKER: Well one day on and one day off. The shift would change at noontime. The next shift would come on, say the starboard shift would come on at noon.

INTERVIEWER: What's a starboard shift?

BANKER: That's the shift coming on duty, you have port and starboard. Starboard would come on at noon. They'd prepare supper, breakfast and dinner. The port shift would come on after dinner and they'd prepare supper, breakfast and dinner in alternating times. And on the weekends, you'd have the whole weekend and then you would have liberty during that time. You'd go off the base. 

INTERVIEWER: So you worked five days, off two?

BANKER: Yes, no, you worked every day. You work every day doing that, I mean, even when in boot camp, when we were off, we were drilling, we were out training.

INTERVIEWER: So you didn't really have days off?

BANKER: No, weekends, sometimes you get days off. You had days off, time off, go home on leave.

INTERVIEWER: What would you wear when you were cooking? Did you have a chef's hat and a chef's apron kind of thing?

BANKER: Hat, yeah, well we had to wear covers while we were cooking.

INTERVIEWER: Covers?

BANKER: Yeah, covers, military terminology (laughter).

INTERVIEWER: Okay and khakis?

BANKER: Whites, white uniform, cook's uniform.

INTERVIEWER: Cook's uniform is white.

BANKER: White jacket and white trousers. And then of course your work shoes, boondocks we call them.

INTERVIEWER: You didn't wear gloves though?

BANKER: No, no, the only time we were gloves was when we had hot pans and were taking bread, rolls or roasts out of the oven. Then the cook wore gloves to keep from burning his hands.

INTERVIEWER: You mentioned before that sometimes you served the troops while they were in the field. How did that work?

BANKER: We'd take them out, we had food containers, vacuum food containers and they had their mess kits that was issued to them in boot camp. We'd take the food out in the trucks in those containers and feed them out in the field.

INTERVIEWER: These were Marines that were training and didn't come back to the base?

BANKER: They trained, for instance, they'd leave the base in the morning to go out in the woods and train and they don't come in until supper time so we had to take lunch out to them. And we'd take it out in the food containers and we'd serve them out in the field. They had their own mess kits that was issued to them in boot camp and they have a place out there for them to wash their mess kit after they're finished eating and we'd take the food out there to them and serve them and bring the food back if there was any left over. Very seldom there was any left over because we'd give everything out to them in the field. They got all they wanted to eat.

INTERVIEWER: Now you came to Camp LeJeune, you said I think, in July of 1942.

BANKER: 1942, right.

INTERVIEWER: And you stayed there through the whole war.

BANKER: Right.

INTERVIEWER: And the war ended in the Pacific on September 2, 1945.

BANKER: Right. I left there in 1946, I think, my first assignment overseas.

INTERVIEWER: Do you remember when the war ended exactly at that time? Like you say you remember when it started. Do you remember when it ended?

BANKER: I remember when it ended because I think I was on my way back from Fort Benning, Georgia. I just completed mess management training course.

INTERVIEWER: How long did that last?

BANKER: The mess management training course? It lasted about three or four weeks and I was on my way back when the war ended. In fact, I was in Atlanta, Georgia, changing trains to come back to Wilmington .

INTERVIEWER: How would you describe your training at Fort Benning? What was that all about?

BANKER: Army cooking, Army training. That's all it was. Their systems, they give you an idea of how the other end works, operates, which I didn't care for. They drew their rations on a daily basis whereas the Marine Corps drew ours on a weekly basis. I didn't like that procedure at all.

INTERVIEWER: Who trained you at Fort Benning?

BANKER: Army cooks.

INTERVIEWER: Fort Benning is an Army base?

BANKER: Yes it is. 

INTERVIEWER: Nothing to do with the Marines?

BANKER: No, see at that time, the Marine Corps didn't have the cooks and bakers school or mess management school.. Now, after the war ended, then the Marine Corps began to spread out and we had our own cooks and bakers school at Camp LeJeune.

INTERVIEWER: So you think you were in Atlanta, Georgia, when the war ended on route back to your base at Camp LeJeune.

BANKER: Montford Point, back to Montford Point camp.

INTERVIEWER: You were at a railroad station or bus terminal?

BANKER: Railroad and bus.

INTERVIEWER: And do you recall jubilation, celebration?

BANKER: It took a long time to get from one train station to get across town in Atlanta, Georgia, to get from one, Atlantic coast line to Seaboard Railway, whatever it was. You had to change railroad stations. Took a long time to get across town because you just couldn't get across the road cause cars were going all around blowing horns and everything. It was chaos.

INTERVIEWER: Was that the first time you'd ever been to Georgia?

BANKER: Yeah, I passed through Georgia, but never, my first time there, stationed there for a while.

INTERVIEWER: Now when you got back to Camp LeJeune, the war's over now.

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: Do you still continue to do the same thing? Are there still recruits being trained or did that stop?

BANKER: There were still recruits training. Not as many, but it was cut back, and a lot of Marines were being discharged. Some chose to stay on like I did. I made it a career and at the time when the war ended, I was now a master sergeant. My rank was a master technical sergeant.

INTERVIEWER: When did you become master technical sergeant?

BANKER: I can't remember what date it was.

INTERVIEWER: Before or after the war ended?

BANKER: During the war. I made master technical sergeant during the war, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: That's one of the highest ranks...

BANKER: The highest rank that an enlisted man could have at that time was six stripes, three up and three down.

INTERVIEWER: It's just one rank below ...

BANKER: A gunner's sergeant or staff sergeant. I was on my own then. All the white Marines had left. By the end of World War II, all the white Marines had left camp and we were on our own then.

INTERVIEWER: When you say you're on your own, what do you mean on your own?

BANKER: There were no white drill instructors, they were all black drill instructors. There were no white cooks, they were all black cooks.

INTERVIEWER: What happened to all the whites?

BANKER: Went back to white units.

INTERVIEWER: Which were where?

BANKER: At Tent City, Camp Geiger, Jacksonville - all part of Camp LeJeune.

INTERVIEWER: Just different sections.

BANKER: Yeah, see Camp LeJeune is 200 square miles. It's a large base. It's an amphibious base, amphibious training. Well they can do anything out there, jungle warfare training and all that stuff.

INTERVIEWER: Okay so now the war's over. You're a master technical sergeant at Camp LeJeune. When do you leave Camp LeJeune?

BANKER: I left Camp LeJeune I think it was 1946 when I first went overseas.

INTERVIEWER: After the war?

BANKER: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: And you're still with this defense battalion?

BANKER: No, now I was with steward branch battalion then. All food service personnel, when they organized the steward branch battalion, all food service personnel was put in the steward branch battalion. Now they trained some of the Marines to be stewards They worked in officers' houses. They became stewards. Prior to World War II, there were no black stewards in the Marine Corps. They used Navy men for stewards. Black cooks. No Marines were stewards until black Marines in the corps.

INTERVIEWER: So all together you were at Camp LeJeune for like four years more or less. Now you brought some medals with you. Would you mind holding them up to the camera and explaining what each one is.

BANKER: Okay, this is my good conduct medal, seven awards. This is the American Service medal.

INTERVIEWER: Is that awarded to Marines who served...

BANKER: Who served during World War II. This is the American Defense medal. This one is the, I can't think what it was now. World War II Victory Medal I think. This is the American Theater, this is the Korean...I don't even know what these things are. These are my awards.

INTERVIEWER: What are those buttons?

BANKER: Same thing, Marine Corps emblems for my uniform.

INTERVIEWER: Okay put that down and show us the letter that you brought. Explain what that is.

BANKER: This is a copy of my original orders dated 20 September 1946 from Commanding General Camp LeJeune North Carolina to me first sergeant Max Russo and master technical sergeant Alvin J. Banker. The two of us were transferred to the 6th colored replacement draft Marines Camp LeJeune, North Carolina. On or about the 26th of September 1946 when directed by the commanding officer, 6th colored replacement draft proceed with that organization to Norfolk, Virginia, for further transportation to duty beyond the continental limits of the United States and it goes on to state that this travel herein was adjoined as necessary in the public service.

INTERVIEWER: That's after the war.

BANKER: This was after the war.

INTERVIEWER: They sent you to Norfolk, Virginia.

BANKER: We went through the Panama Canal to Norfolk. From there into the Pacific and we went to Saipan in the Mariana Islands. In Saipan, we had our own camp there. We had several white staff NCOs in our group and the Marine Corps began to get integrated more gradually.

INTERVIEWER: Why did we need Marines on these islands after we had conquered them and the war was over?

BANKER: To clean up, mop up, cause when we went to Saipan, we were going out at night on patrols routing out Japanese because right across from our camp was a POW camp and some of the Japs were still hiding out in the hills after the war ended. We rounded up and gradually repatriated them back to Japan.

INTERVIEWER: When you say "we"...

BANKER: The United States government.

INTERVIEWER: Your job was still as a cook.

BANKER: My job at that time, I was a mess sergeant, feeding the Marines on the islands that we took from Japan during the war.

INTERVIEWER: Doing the same kind of work I guess.

BANKER: Yes, doing the same kind of work. Of course, the conditions were different. It was out in the field. We had field galleys, field kitchens and it was an all together different type of cooking, but the food was still the same. Our rations were the same.

INTERVIEWER: Harder to cook because you didn't have the comforts of home?

BANKER: Well I would say, yes, in a way it was harder. But once you learned the art of cooking, you can cook anyplace and the guys would continue to complain, but they never threw the food away. They always ate and came back for seconds. We had an ample amount of food for them. They never left hungry. 

INTERVIEWER: What was your period of enlistment from the beginning? Was it the duration of the war or was it for a fixed term of two or three years or whatever?

BANKER: When I volunteered, it was indefinite for the duration of the war. And then when the war ended, I volunteered, I reenlisted.

INTERVIEWER: For what period of time or was there no period?

BANKER: My first reenlistment was for four years and then when that ended, I reenlisted again for four more years.

INTERVIEWER: All right, let's go back to the first reenlistment period. Now you're serving in the Pacific and feeding the troops who were mopping up these various islands that we conquered during the war. How long did that last?

BANKER: It lasted about 8 months and then we left Saipan and went to Guam and then I was in charge of the subsistence supply warehouse which supplied food for the 5th service supply depot. Drew supplies from the Navy supply depot and issued to the mess halls within the 5th service supply units.

INTERVIEWER: How many islands all together did you serve on?

BANKER: Guam, Saipan, two years on Guam, about a year in Saipan. I had my family with me on Guam.

INTERVIEWER: You had married?

BANKER: I was married when I went overseas, the first time I went overseas. It was a bummer.

INTERVIEWER: What other islands did you serve on besides Guam and Saipan. What about Guadalcanal?

BANKER: No, not Guadalcanal. I didn't go there. I served- Iwo Jima on maneuvers. That was long after the war had ended. I was with the 1st battalion 2nd Marines. This was after World War II had ended. I was with the 1st battalion, 2nd Marines and we went on the Mediterranean cruise and we went to various islands in the Pacific and Europe.

INTERVIEWER: Now when you saw these islands, Saipan and Guam, did you see any signs of the battles that we fought there?

BANKER: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Japanese pill boxes. Dug in, concrete bunkers, suicide cliffs on Saipan where the Japanese killed, threw their families, threw them over a cliff into the ocean, saw all that.

INTERVIEWER: You didn't happen to see any of the combat veterans who had served on these islands. They were gone I guess by the time you got there.

BANKER: We met some of them because one of my cooks, a staff sergeant, he had two battle stars in his Asiatic Pacific medal and I had that medal here. That's what this medal is here. He had two battle stars and this medal here and the Japanese that fought in that war...because he had a mean look on his face and he was a white fellow, staff sergeant, they would not sit by him and they gave him a dirty look. They knew if you were in combat, they'd know by the number of stars on your medals that you fought in the war. And some of them were friendly and some of them were not. The majority of them were not friendly.

INTERVIEWER: The Japanese?

BANKER: The Japanese. 

INTERVIEWER: Captured Japanese or civilians.

BANKER: Oh they were civilians by now, they were out.

INTERVIEWER: Who lived on Saipan?

BANKER: They lived on Saipan, Japan. We didn't go anywhere in Saipan. I went to Tokyo, Yokohama, South Camp Fuji and those places.

INTERVIEWER: Did you see any signs of devastation from our attacks in Japan?

BANKER: Some areas, yes, on the main island, yeah. There were damages. Destroyed homes, fields, buildings.

INTERVIEWER: Did you serve in the Marine Corps during the Korean War?

BANKER: Yes, all of my service during the Korean War was in the states. I received orders to go overseas to the first Marine air wing and during that time, the Korean War ended while I was on route to Camp Pendleton, California for further transfer. I went to the west coast to be transferred to Korea, the war had ended. My orders were modified and I was sent overseas with the 3rd Marine division to Japan.

INTERVIEWER: How many years all together did you serve in the Marine Corps?

BANKER: 24.

INTERVIEWER: And you were discharged when?

BANKER: August 1966, 24 years.

INTERVIEWER: And what rank were you discharged at?

BANKER: Master sergeant.

INTERVIEWER: When did you get your separation from service?

BANKER: Marine barracks, Philadelphia naval yard.

INTERVIEWER: And you left voluntarily or was it because of age?

BANKER: No I left voluntarily.

INTERVIEWER: And your entire service involved cooking?

BANKER: Food service, yes.

INTERVIEWER: Food service, primarily as a cook.

BANKER: Primarily, I supervised.

INTERVIEWER: That's toward the end of your career? How about when you were at Camp LeJeune during World War II.

BANKER: I was supervising then.

INTERVIEWER: In other words, you didn't do that much cooking?

BANKER: I did not. Once I became a staff, a gunnery sergeant, a technical sergeant back then, I did supervising, most of my time was supervising, not actual cooking. In a jam, I helped out, but I supervised the cooks.

INTERVIEWER: Told them what to prepare and when to prepare and how to prepare. So actual cooking was only the first couple years at Camp LeJeune?

BANKER: Right, I elevated myself and supervised.

INTERVIEWER: Tell us something about that medallion that you're wearing and the emblem on your jacket.

BANKER: This was the jacket, this is the Montford Point Marine Association which I am a member of, I'm proud of it, is a group of us that got together in Philadelphia in 1985 and organized a unit called Montford Point Marine Association. It's an order for all Marines who went to boot camp at Montford Point and beyond that area when it was segregated and we have about 12,000 members.

INTERVIEWER: It's not just black.

BANKER: Any Marine that had any affiliation with Montford Point. There are a few whites in it, but in my chapter down in Wilmington, we don't have any whites. And this medallion was awarded to me two years ago at our convention in Las Vegas, a medallion inducting me into Montford Point Marine Association Hall of Fame. I'm one of the founders of the Montford Point Association and one of the first blacks in the Marine Corps.

INTERVIEWER: The cap you're wearing says Philadelphia.

BANKER: That's the chapter where I was stationed at the time. We have a chapter in Wilmington, Chapter 25, of which I am a member now.

INTERVIEWER: Wilmington, North Carolina.

BANKER: Yes and we had a convention this past summer at Camp LeJeune, chapter 10. We do work for the community, award scholarships to deserving students around the country.

INTERVIEWER: What kind of occupation did you have when you left the Marine Corps.

BANKER: I went to work for Grumman Corporation on Long Island. At that time, it was known as Brown Aerospace Corporation. They're the people that built the moon module, the F14, the 86A, the E2C Hawkeye. I started out as a security guard and worked my way up to becoming a sergeant and then from there to lieutenant. I got out of the uniform, wore plain clothes and became a security officer. In that capacity, I traveled, went around visiting various plants and checking engineers out making sure that they were adhering to the industrial security regulations in dealing with secret classified documents.

INTERVIEWER: How long were you with them?

BANKER: 24 years.

INTERVIEWER: Was that your last employer before you retired?

BANKER: That was my last employer.

INTERVIEWER: And you lived on Long Island?

BANKER: I lived on Long Island, yes.

INTERVIEWER: Whereabouts?

BANKER: Dix Hills, Long Island in the town of Huntington. We moved down here seven years ago.

INTERVIEWER: So your experience in the Marine Corps during World War II and thereafter was good?

BANKER: It was very good. It prepared me for the work that I was doing in civilian life in some aspects, particularly when it comes to inspections and dealing with people. In the military, I had ways of disciplining men. In civilian life, I had to find a different way to discipline them when I found them doing something wrong. I used to go around checking their material when they leave at night to see if they had secured their classified documents because we did a lot of defense contract work. Sometimes these guys would get careless with the documents and it was my job to reprimand them and make any recommendations that I saw fit. Of courses, my director he had final approval.

INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else you want to say about your service before we conclude.

BANKER: Well I'll say the Marine Corps is one of the best in the world. If I had to do it over again, I would further my education. I would not be so hot to trot to get married at a young age, big mistake that I made. I recommend that any young man or woman today who can't find themselves, go in the military and get an education. If they can't get an education outside of the military, go into the military, you'll get one.

INTERVIEWER: Okay, Mr. Banker, thank you very much. We're going to conclude the interview now at 5 minutes to 3:00 on December 20th, 2000.