Good afternoon. My name is Paul Zarbock, a staff member with the University of North Carolina at Wilmington's Randall Library. Today is the 25th of February in the year 2004 and we're on the campus of the university. Our interviewee today is Mr. John Scales. We've been chatting off camera a little bit and I'm going to welcome him and we'll take it from there. Good afternoon and welcome.

Good afternoon, Henn Zarbock, using the German derivation of that.

Yes. How did you get into the military, when did you get into the military and where did you get into the military?

When I was seven years of age the Japanese invaded China in 1933 and I knew about that, I could read and write at that time, and subsequently I was rather appalled and dismayed by that because I know that- I knew that my father, Baxter Boyd Scales, had gone through World War, I and had suffered uh.. a fairly uh.. severe uhm.. attack of mustard gas which rendered him almost in compos mentis but he was able to survive. But I knew about the army and warfare and things of that nature. In fact, it was rather exciting to me back in those days. So I knew about the Japanese invasion and of course and then- and- and then in uh.. '36 the uh.. uh.. Spanish uh.. Revolution took place under Franco, the dictator, and then of course in uh.. 1939 we have the start of World War II and I was uhm.. interested in all of these and- and uh.. was constantly exposed to activities of that nature.

Where were you living at that time?

Hempstead, Long Island, up in New York State, uhm.. about uh.. five miles from the from the ocean, the Atlantic Ocean. I loved it, a lovely place. Went through uhm.. grammar school there, got into the eh.. just about the the uh.. tail end of the 7th grade and I was so interested in, in the military that I, I badgered my mother and father, please send me to a military academy, and back in those days uh.. the military academies were advertising in virtually every magazine and newspaper that they could put something in. Uh.. It was a very, very uhm.. common thing to see at the tail end of a publication uh.. maybe two pages of advertising from all of the military academies uhm.. in the country and I was very familiar with uh.. Staunton and Hargrave and- and uhm.. uhm.. a number of others whose names I, I can't remember at the moment. So I, I moaned and groaned and I said I want to go to a military academy for my 8th grade, can, can we manage that financially? Well, fortunately, uh.. Dad had a pretty good business going at the tail end of the Depression and my mother had uh... uh.. become a uhm... advertising manager of uh.. a fairly long, large Long Island department store located in Hempstead, the Franklin Shops, and she was the advertising manager. When she started that, that business uh.. with them, with the Franklin Shops, they had three telephone operators. The building was five stories high, almost a half a city block in size. When she left them in 1946 to go down to Lynchburg, Virginia, with my father, they had 11 telephone operators so her work was valuable and it was effective. Well, so they were able to garner up enough change, small change, to put me through one year at Hargrave Military Academy in Chatham, Virginia, and this was starting in, in 1937 and I finally graduated from the 8th grade out of Hargrave in 1938 just in time in 1939 to start high school in Hempstead.

Uh.. Hempstead did not have a Uh.. Uh.. Hempstead High School did not have a junior ROTC program. That sort of a thing was virtually unheard of back in those days so I was not able to participate in any militaristic attitudes or aspects or training for that matter other than the fact that I uh.. had a- a beautiful Winchester 52 22 caliber rifle that my father had uh.. obtained for me and uh.. I joined the uhm.. uhm.. high school rifle club and I proceeded to train myself to- to become a very effective shooter. Subsequently, uhm.. in 1942 we were just recuperating from the- the psychological shock of the attack on Pearl Harbor and I knew that uhm.. I just had to- to do something about, you know, getting involved- involved without becoming a volunteer and just going off and- and becoming a- a- a normal soldier although that was ultimately anticipated in my career at one time or another. Uhm.. So a long time- uh.. to make a long story short, at the tail end of 1942 when I finally graduated in June I was three days on the campus at Virginia Tech, VPI, Virginia Polytechnic Institute back in those days, in Blacksburg, Virginia. I- I never attended my high school graduation exercise. I never had a senior ball. I never did any of the things that most high school seniors accomplish at- at the tail end of their educational career. I was already playing troop with the senior ROTC program (laughs) at Virginia Tech and uh.. I loved it and it- it went well with my demeanor at the moment and uh...

I got involved with the chemical engineering department and- uh.. and I had a- a pretty good background in- in- uh.. in mathematics and- and chemistry and physics and whatever. So I did reasonably well in my freshman year and uhm.. uh.. I was a- a good cadet and then I stayed on board and became a sophomore in the fall of- uh.. that was in 194 s- in '43- '43, the fall of '42, spring of '43, and uh.. became a sophomore and still in the chemical engineering department and all of a sudden I received a little billy do[ph?] from the federal government indicating that I had been drafted and called up for virtually immediate service and I was shocked and uh.. dismayed and horrified and frustrated due to the fact that here I am a college student involved with a military program and I'm gonna become a- a reserve officer and on active duty eh.. and with World War II and here I am being drafted. Ridiculous. I thought that was absolutely stupid but uh.. and[ph?] I girded my loins and plunged into (laughs) the program of becoming an active duty soldier, uh.. went through uhm.. uh.. Camp- Camp Custer up in Kalamazoo area of Michigan and became a military policeman. The reason for that was the fact that I was wearing glasses at the time and I still carry them with me for reading purposes now but only for that. Back in those days I was virtually blind without ne- without glasses. Well, the military when they gave me a physical examination determined that oh, this fellow's virtually useless, we can't make a- uh.., you know, a soldier out of him really, uh.. he's not good for infantry or artillery or armor or signal corps or any of these,[ph?] combat engineers, he can't do anything like that because he's wearing glasses and without glasses he's virtually blind, so we'll put him under the uhm.. program which permits glass wearers and other people who are partially indigent or physically impaired uh.. to get into uhm.. a program which will get good service out of him but will protect him and- and his eyeballs, and they made me an MP but a special type of MP, military policeman, escort guard. What is that? Military police Escort Guard Companies were formed in a battalion of 10 companies in the summer and early fall of 1943 because we had invaded north Africa, the infantry were being used to guard the 250,000 Africa Corps personnel, both the Germans and the Italians, and we needed the infantry for the invasion of Sicily and subsequently also the invasion of Italy and we needed all those good people. And uh.. so they said well, we'll just uh.. form these escort guard companies uh.. from all of these uhm.. half capable people and they can become guards. Literally, that was true because it was a job a high school sophomore could handle. It was simplistic. No- No skills needed for that at all other than being able to shoot. That never took place either for that matter. So uh..there I am uhm.. eh.. in this Escort Guard Company being trained at Camp Custer. Uh.. Subsequently, uhm.. about 10,000 Africa Corps, both Germans and Italians, personnel were shipped down to a- uhm.. a brand new camp in Ruston, Louisiana, which is halfway between Monroe and Shreveport.

How do you spell?

R-u-s-t-o-n, Ruston, and uhm.. the camp was there. They Uh.. Eh.. The corps of engineers had put up all of the barbed wire and the, the big fences and whatever and guard towers, etc., the eh.. the- the uhm.. one story barracks buildings for the troops and kitchens and whatever. So we essentially moved into a brand new facility and uhm.. there these uh.. PWs were uh.. and we were prepared to- to handle them uh.. eh.. without any difficulty and uhm.. I do recall that uhm.. one German officer somehow was able to escape and he wound up 30 miles down a railroad track heading north. He hoped to get to Canada where there were uh.. lots of Germanic people that would be willing to hide him. Well, he never made it. He got 30 miles down the road and they- they captured him but anyway uh.. uh.. it was an interesting program there and uhm.. uhm... Program, that's not the right word to use but nevertheless uhm..

It was an assignment, wasn't it?

Oh, yes, sure. You will do this and you will go there and

What was your rank by the way?

My rank at the time was still a private but ultimately uhm.. when I finally uh.. was able to move out to get prepared for overseas movement in- in Arkans- in Little Rock, Arkansas, we stayed for two weeks in a- in a camp for that purpose, uh.. they promoted me on my birthday, 9 March '44, Private First Class.

Let me take you back to this stockade area, the prisoners. People, the guards can't go home at night. This is 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Tell me about the normal and usual activity. Would you...would the shifts change?

Oh, yes. It was uh..

What was morale like? What was the food like? Where did you go for recreation?

Hmm. The prog, The program, Here (laughs) I go again using that term loosely. The daily activities were typical two hours of duty on, on guard duty, two hours on, four hours off, 24 hours a day, two on, four off. If you'd get used to it after a period of time, then it's not difficult to take. If you're on for two hours, you know, heavens, I mean, you know, you're just standing around looking down a fence line or watching for any strange movements or whatever but at night uh.. it became a little bit more difficult because of the fact that uh.., you know, you're breaking your normal sleep habits, you know, having to be on, on guard duty or relieving some other, other poor soul at 2 o'clock in the morning and you're gonna be there 'til 4 and, but you're, you were on a shift for 24 hours, eh.. you were, you were on a shift, two hours on, four hours off, for 24 hours and then your shift goes off and another one comes on- on board with eh.. maybe a half a dozen other people, two hours on and four hours off, you see. Uhm.. During that time eh.. uh.. when we were off, uh.. we were occupied in normal military training duties, drilling uh.. and cleaning equipment, scrubbing the barracks down and washing windows and buffing our shoes, uh.. tryin' to make ourselves look presentable eh.. under all circumstances, and uhm.. uh..

What was morale like?

Morale was a variable. I had pretty good morale eh.. realistically even though I, I, I moaned and groaned and carried on just like everybody else did about the, the poor food and, and the lousy clothing and, you know, the boots that don't fit and it's so cold and it's uh.., you know, and and yet it's so hot and whatever, that sort of thing, but uhm.. uhm.. it uh.. it, in general it was uh.. acceptable, uhm.. a far be uh.. a far better situation than being in in north Africa or heading toward Sicily with the bullets whirling over your head. I never heard a shot fired in anger even though I went through uhm.. Utah Beach in France after we bundled ourselves up and shipped up to uhm.. New York City, put under, uh.. on- uh.. on train. The unit was uh.. put together, 130 people uh.. 130, that's all we were, a very small organization, and uh.. wound up in New York City eh.. and got on uh.. the SS Argentina which had been a vessel utilized previously for the Argentinian, South American, tourist trade, SS Argentina. We had about 5,000 people on board that ship. Like sardines, crammed in there. I was down uh.. down in one of the lower levels of the, of the, of the ship and uh.. we actually pulled the guard duty on board ship, trying to keep all the rest of the troops under control. We carried our carbines. We had am

A carbine is what?

Eh.. The M1 carbine, a little, short rifle, 15 round capability.

The other troops were not armed, were they?

No, but we were. We were given specific instructions: You will control these GIs and uhm.. uh.. uh.. and uh.. make sure that they don't fall overboard and, you know, whatever.

This is a situation of two meals a day. Was that what they fed you?

On board ship, yes, sure.

You got breakfast-- You got somethin' in the morning and somethin' in the afternoon.

That was in the ship's arrangement too of course. So uhm.. my first uh.. tour of duty on board that vessel I was at the stern or as they would say aft, stern, right by a five inch rifle, a five inch gun, a naval artillery piece, but they had taken down all of the uhm..-- What's the term that they use there? My mind fades periodically. Uhm.. Robert, what- what is the name for the uhm.. guardrails on board ship? What do we call those?

Railing?

Well, all right, we, we could do all[ph?] Uh.. Uh.. There's a specific term for 'em. Uh.. Uh.. I must eh.. excuse myself for the audience because-- Well, anyway, eh.. they removed eh.. the railings uh.. from- to give the the uh.. uhm.. artillery piece uh.. a good 90 degree swing.

Field of fire there.

Field of fire. Thank you, Sir. And uh.. (laughs) there I am right on the stern of the vessel and of course we run into a north Atlantic storm and there I am (inaudible) at the tail end of the ship, up and down, up and down, back and up and down, and pretty soon I'm lying in the scuppers heaving up what little I've had eh.. for supper and that went on for 10 days. (laughs) I was seasick every one of the 10 days on board that vessel 'til we finally pulled into the harbor in Liverpool, England, you know, and then it was quiet and peaceful and everything. We were able to uhm.. get located in a- a- a facility with Quonset huts, the little, round huts that the British loved to stick all over the place, and uh.. then they gave us some free time. We've got nothing to do, no guard duty, no- no PWs to look at or worry about or anything, and uhm.. then all of a sudden we got a clarion call to duty. There's a- a train pulling in and what is it filled with? German prisoners of war. Where did they come from? This is England. We're not fighting on English soil. Oh, yes, you are, the Battle of Britain. The Spitfires and the other aircraft that are against the- uh.. the German Messerschmitt 110 bombers and the ME uh.. 109 BF uh.. fighter planes uh.. and all of the people on the- on the German Luftwaffe that survived the attack by the British were captured. Now of course a lot of them were killed when their planes crashed and everything but uhm.. uh.. uh.. the- the live ones were captured and we wound up with uh.. about uh.. 300 of them on this train, that we had to guard these people, and they were ul- ultimately loaded on a ship uh.. eh.. in Liverpool and we went for one of six trips across the Atlantic Ocean, taking them back to the States, and once again I was seasick of course. That's my- my uh.. standard (laughs) modus operandi so to speak and uhm.. uh.. we dropped these people off in- uh.. in New York City and- and uh.. then there were other opportunities where I- uhm.. we- I made three trips with prisoners back to the States, once in Baltimore and once in Boston and that one time in New York.

Were there ever any incidents with the prisoners coming?

Negative.

--to the United States?

Negative, not a bit.

And you were serving again, was it two on and four off?

That's right. Yeah.

Twenty-four hours a day.

Twenty-four hours a day.

Did you interact with the prisoners at all?

Very little uh.. uh.. on board ship. They were pretty much ensconced in the hold of- the hold of the vessel and they were not given much opportunity to even get fresh air for that matter. Uhm.. On the trips back to- f- from the States to England or to France, as the situation turned out to be, I- I had the opportunity to ride on the Queen Elizabeth I, QE I, the Queen Mary I and the SS America which was the- the big, beautiful tourist vessel that the Americans had put up against the French Normandy and the QE I and the Queen Mary and we made the Atlantic run in 3-1/2 days at full speed, 35 knots, but zigzagging all the way because they didn't want to get captured by the German U-boats and that- that went- went rather well but- but even on those uh.. I had uh.. uh.. queasy stomachs.

When you were traveling on these ships going to Europe, were you hauling troops?

Oh, yes. I didn't mention that. Sorry. On the QE I we had 25,000.

Well they must have been standin' up.

Pretty much. One of the incidents that was most graphic uh.. relative to uh.. our duty eh.. is the fact that uhm.. the British uh.. Navy who operates those vessels wanted to conduct, and they did every time, a gun drill, firing the uh.. or a 20 millimile- uh.. 20 millimeter Oerlikon antiaircraft machine guns, the 40 millimeter Bofors antiaircraft, machine cannons almost, 40 millimeter, and uhm.. uhm.. the 50 caliber water cooled machine guns, and last but not least the 5 inch rifles, naval guns, that they had, and the- the ship was just armed like a light cruiser. It had more firepower than anything you could possibly imagine other than a- than a regular combat vessel. And uh.. so we were given the command you will keep these troops down in their bunks, laying flat on their bunks, do not permit them to come up any of the stairwells, if they panic and try to get up stairs shoot them. We had live rounds in the carbines for that purpose, shoot them, we don't want any panicked GIs running around loose on our ship, this is a combat vessel, we're under rules of law, uh.. the law of war, and we- we don't need any nondisciplinary actions.

So there I am standing in one of these big, beautiful, 10 foot wide stairwells that the QE I was loaded with, and uh.. they had about 10 of them or so, and uh.. we were told there was gonna be a gun drill and so- so well, that's- that's nice, and I'm just standing there wasting my time doing nothing. All of a sudden "boom," huge, big blast, "boom," and all of a sudden I'm-, you know, I'm- I'm shocked, wow, well, that must be one of those naval guns, and all of a sudden, "wa- wa- wa- wa- wa- wa," the walls of the vessel shook, vibrated with such intensity it was felt throughout the whole- the whole ship from bottom to top and then they fired another gun, "boom," "wa- wa- wa- wa- wa," (laughs) and it was- it was the damnedest sensation going through that and- but eh.. the troops down below, not knowing anything, boy were they- they were uh.. really getting nervous, my God, are we under, you know, a torpedo attack, we are, you know, being bombed, I mean what's- uh.., you know, are we gonna be able to get out and that sort of a thing? And there I'm wondering my God, are they gonna mob me, am I supposed to shoot these fellows, you know, if they come up? But uh.. then they called it off. They- They fired a few of the antiaircraft weapons and hit- hit targets floating in the water and that sort of thing but they did that every- every- every voyage to keep the gun crews sharp and on- on their toes but that was fascinating to have that whole ship, 60,000 some odd tons of metal just vibrating and shaking like that.

Now the reason for that is the fact that the k- eh.. these vessels even though they're a tremendous weight are not structured like a combat vessel, like a cruiser or a battleship or anything like that. They're not designed that way and so they kinda shake and shimmy and- and (laughs) whatever. You know, if you fired a- a 16 inch rifle on a battleship it wouldn't happen. The vessel would buck and move and everything and maybe the pots and pans might fall down in- in eh.. uh.. the galley but uh.. nothing would happen with it. If you'd do that on- (laughs) on QE II which is 104,000 tons and it would still shake, (laughs) very, very interesting, very unique- very unique. So uhm.. eh.. my uh.. overseas ventures in- as far as navy is concerned, I made six trips across the Atlantic Ocean, I have more sea duty uh.. than a lot of sailors and I- I joined the- uh.. the Navy League for a period of time just because of reminiscing (laughs) so to speak. Uhm.. Finally landed in France, Utah Beach.

How? Where? How did you get to Utah Beach? You didn't come in on the QE I.

Oh, no, no, no. This was a- uhm.. uhm.. a small I guess you could call it a- uhm.. a freighter, a coast- a coastal freighter. The British had a lot of vessels like that and uhm.. uh.. they would normally make the run across the channel, the English Channel, only 20 miles wide, uhm.. with a- a- a light ship like that but we had- uhm.. we had about uhm.. maybe uh.. 1200, 1500 pe- troops on board this- this vessel all headed towards uh.. Utah Beach and when we got close to the shore we could- uh.. we could hear gunfire off in the- in the distance, uhm.. artillery and that sort of a thing. So uh.. we landed right at s- Sainte-Mere-Eglise, uh.. which is the city that- or the town that was portrayed uh.. very specifically in that motion picture uhm.. uh.. the- uhm.. uh.. the- The Longest uh.. Day with the 82nd and the 181st airborne paratroopers dropping in- in on them and the Germans shooting them out of the sky and the fellow dropping into the- the burning church and- and the other one hanging by his tr- uhm.. trout[ph?] lines uhm.., you know, off of the church building and watching the scene down below and that sort of thing, very, very dramatic.

Uh.. We were able to put on trucks and then dashed away to the city of Renneson, R-e-n-n-e-s-o-n, where a PW camp had been uh.. set up. Uhm.. We had about- uhm.. maybe about 5,000 Germans behind the wire there and it was right by a railroad track and periodically several times a day the French government would run uhm.. military uhm.. oh, not convoy, uh.. you could use uh.. the term 'convoy' loosely but uh.. uhm.. they were able to resurrect some railroad cars out of there, uhm.. museums for the most part, uh.. because all the rest of the stuff had been destroyed by American air forces but they- uh.. they would run uh.. uhm.. their- their soldiers, they still had a- a French army uhm.. to- uhm.. heading off to the front lines eh.. to uh.. help uh.. the Americans at- attack the Germans. One day about at daylight a train runs right in the- the- one of these crazy Frenchmen with a machine pistol, a German machine pistol, a 9 millimeter M50, shoots out of his window as he's passing the PW camp, just indiscriminate, "pi- pi- pi- pi- pi," killed about 10 of them and wounded about 50 people. Boy, was there a lot of hullaballoo about that. From then on the French government was not permitted to run the railroad- (laughs) the trains by the PW camp anymore because the- they had no control of their own- own people and these people were understandably all very angry and frustrated with the fact that the Germans came in and did all of their dastardly deeds and everything. And so that was interesting, excitement.

Do you have any idea if the shooter was courts martialed or...

I have no idea at all. I have no idea. He probably was I suspect. The French government would certainly want to maintain discipline in the troops and for that to happen willy nilly uh.. they would not permit it again of course so they probably clamped down on that but they didn't run the trains by the rail- the PW camp anymore either for that matter. Uh.. After that we went to the city of Le Mans, L-e-m-a-n-s. After that we went to uh.. the city of Nantes, N-a-n-t-e-s, which is not too far from Saint-Nazaire and Loire Leon[ph?] on the English Channel. Had a fairly large uh.. PW camp in- in Nantes.

Are you moving prisoners...

Yes.

You're transporting...?

No- No. No, we're not transporting the PWs. They are loaded on- on- on railroad cars and- and things of this nature. We were not involved with the actual transport activities.

You were the guard around the perimeter of the stockade?

That's correct. Interesting about Nantes was the fact that uhm.. you would normally expect uh.. that all of the German prisoners would be Caucasians and not so. About 5,000 of these people were Mongolians that had been captured by the Russians as you were{ph?] uh.. that had been captured by the Germans, uh.. Russian troops that they had caught on the eastern front, Theron noc Austen,[ph?] you know, and so they- uh.. they- uh.. they captured these (laughs) Mongolians which the Russians were used to building uh.. entrenchments and fortifications and things of this nature. And uh.. the Germans understood that the people were capable of doing that so they- they used 'em to uh.. build German fortifications and entrenchments and whatever right along the English- English Channel, you know, the West- West Wall they called that, and uh.. had all of these uh.. (laughs) 5,000 some odd Mongolians that could not speak German and they could not speak English, that could not speak French, they uh.. just knew their very strange uh.. Horsleden[ph?] (laughs) tongue which is a bastard uh.. derivation of Chinese and uh.. that- that didn't help any of us of course but uh.. fortunately we didn't have too much interaction with these people.

Let me pause and ask you: In any of the perimeter guard activity, again was there interaction between guards and prisoners? Or was there a great social distance and a military separation?

Sure. There was a- a little bit of the social activity. Uhm.. Like we would talk to these people through the fence and uhm.. uh.. not a lot of that. Now I- I was fortunate in- in- to be able to handle a situation like that because I could- I could speak German, uh.. not that I'm a linguist but I could speak German to a point where they could understand me rather well and I could understand them. Uhm.. Also I picked up a- a fair amount of "GI French" eh.. which did me well uhm.. in uhm.. relationship with the civil- the French civilians because periodically when we were not on guard duty we were wandering around the countryside just looking at everything and looking for uh.. bistros where we could get a- uh.. a shot of uh.. vodka, you know, and uh.. schnapps and- and uh.. Calvados and- and red wine and all of these good uh.. beverages that the French are capable of producing so and uh.. th- that uh.. was necessary. So there was a little bit of interaction uh.. with the- with the Germans. One of the things that uhm.. made my life over there a little bit more uh.. reasonable is the fact that s- eh.. in Sainte-Lo, France, which is not too far from the English Channel, uh.. one of the first major cities that the Americans had captured, uhm.. there was the San Lo- uh.. Sainte-Lo pocket. The Germans' Seventh Army was essentially surrounded and they had little access anyplace and they were- ultimately were completely surrounded and there were something like oh, about 200,000 German soldiers over a- a- a 50 mile front, you see, but we had essentially surrounded them. The commanding general of the German forces, uh.. a very wise fellow, uh.. decided to uh.. help his people out. He knew that they would be captured and put away and uhm.. uh.. so he told his paymasters in all of the units open up your vaults and your safes and hand out the money that you have in there, all French francs, legal tender, uh.. according to the rank of each individual that survived the fighting and you know eh.. eh.. effective a certain date we're gonna surrender the whole army and they did that.

But they got a bonus first.

They got a, a bonus first and the Geneva Convention rules state that you are not supposed to take personal things like this, money and jewelry and whatever, away from any prisoners and so we adhered to that and the British did too for that matter. I don't know what the French did but uh.. (laughs) I have to say probably eh.. eh.. stripped them bare and, and took everything. I don't know that but anyway uh.. so these, these fellows wound up in the- uh.. in our PW camps and they were loaded with eh.. (laughs) fat wads of, you know, 20,000 franc notes and things of this nature.[ph?] A franc back in those days was worth 2 cents. You wouldn't think oh, well, that's not very much money but when you have thousands of them in your hand yes, it is, it's a lot of money. And so uh.. noticing this and knowing that the, the Germans loved to smoke and they weren't given any other opportunity for anything at all, maybe a, a soap piece of soap once in a while, so I decided well, I, I'll save all of my post exchange goods, and we were fed post exchange goods, uh.. the soaps, uhm.. toothpaste, uhm.. uh.., you know, personal hygiene items

Cigarettes?

--and cigarettes, seven packs a week. I did not smoke. I went to the f- the fence and I would hold up one of these packs of cigarettes, "'Ello cigarettes", and uh.. a half a dozen of these fellows would come rushing over and uh.. uh.. I would sell a pack of cigarettes for 1,000 francs, $20. Wow, an that was uh.. like a gold mine and I had seven of 'em and so eh.. every week I loaded my pockets up with my (laughs) cigarettes and any that I could bum off of my fellows that didn't smoke either for that matter and there were some that were like myself uh.. but they- they were not wise in the ways of uh.. marketing, (laughs) they were not marketeers. And so I would uhm.. dispose of my cigarettes that way and I always had lots of francs in my pocket so I could go off to a bistro and- and find myself a bottle of wine or uh.. a lo- half a loaf of bread or cheese and, you know, typical French food or maybe souvenirs or something like that. Uh.. I- I was able to get into a- a- a- a French antique store one time in the city of Le Mans and I was able to uhm.. buy a uhm.. very beautiful, still in excellent condition, a French musket that was- uhm.. uh.. harked back to the Napoleonic era. In fact, it actually had uh.. uh.. a- a stamp on it, ni- uh.. 1803, and it was fireable and I ultimately brought it back to the States and was able to shoot it but uh.. that sort of thing. So and I loaded myself up with antique firearms and- and uhm.. uh.. good- good food and whatever and- and- I- I made out rather well uhm.. even though I- eh.. theoretically I was illegal but nobody caught us, we few that were able to talk to the Germans through the fence. Wound up after uh.. Le Mons, uh.. went down to Nantes.

The year is now what?

The year is now uhm.. '44, winter of '44, spring of '45, going into the summer. The Germans of course surrendered in May of '45. I don't recall the precise date but May of '45 was the month in which it occurred. Uhm.. It was very interesting. On 29 November 1944 in a little backwater town in- in southern France right by the Saint-Nazaire and Loire Leon[ph?] on the English Channel in a little town called Pornic, P-o-r-n-i-c, Pornic was the place where the first live prisoner of war exchange took place between Germans and Americans. Nobody knows that this was accomplished. I must digress just a moment but I think it's important that we put this into a- a- uhm.. an aspect of history. I'm reading a letter, a copy of a letter which personnel in the 94th Infantry Division received from Americans, prisoners of war. "Dear Sir: There are 12 American soldiers being held prisoners of war here. Food is very scarce here and we would greatly appreciate it if you could send us some rations. We are very hungury- hungry. Gratefully yours, the Americans." (shows to the camera) A copy of the letter.

May I have a Xerox copy of that?

You may. You'll have to make one. And this is much too voluminous to show all of these things that I have in here but a gentleman by the name of Jeroe Hodges[ph?] when he was a young man was involved with college in Birmingham, Alabama, a football injury kept him from being involved with the U.S. military. And so he was able to volunteer and get himself shipped over to France as a representative of the American Red Cross and from what I was told uh.. every American major combat unit like a division, etc., had a representative of the American- one or more eh.. American Red Cross people. Well, Jeroe Hodges, Birmingham, Alabama, uh.. was one of those people. He was given the original of this letter and he vowed and determined that he would effect a release of these people, maybe if we worked with the Germans across the line we could effect the release of these people.

So we posed that to the commanding general of the 94th, the 94th said yes, do it. Hodges was able to wen- wend his way uh.. through the German lines uh.. with their permission of course and uhm.., you know, set up meetings and chitchat back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and eh.. came out with the listings of prisoners of war both German, as you were,[ph?] both uh.. French, British and Americans that the Germans were keeping in uh.. Saint-Nazaire and Loire Leon right over the- right on the English Channel. So he was able to do that. Ultimately, uhm.. on 29 November of '44 in Pornic he was able to effect the release of 51 uhm.. American, English and French troops and we gave him out of Nantes, our- our PW camp there in Nantes, 51 Caucasian Germans, not the Mongolians, we didn't want anything to do with Mongolians, and so that went well uh.. believe it or not and I happened to be uhm.. the unofficial photographer of my unit, the 470th Military Police Escort Guard Company. I was the unofficial photographer. I had an- an old Argus C3 35 millimeter camera loaded with uh.. uh.. Kodak Super Double X uh.. high intensity uh.. 100 ASA 35 millimeter film. (laughs) And I shot pictures after pictures. (shows photograph) That is me in the summer of '44 just before landing in- in France and there I am in an English pasture. (another photograph) And here are some of the troops that I was working with. These are some of my fellows at the- at the p- PW facility in Nantes. And there are uhm.. too many of these pictures to- to show- to show you but let me see if I can find uh.. uh.. a typical one. (another photograph) Well, uh.. there's one. That's-- Here's a picture of Jeroe Hodges. Are we getting it on the film?

We're getting an image but I'm gonna Xerox those and put it in your dossier.

Yeah. (shows photograph) That's one of the better pictures. You can see Hodges right in the middle there. All of these photographs, and which we have a- a- a large number of them, were taken by me. The interesting about that- eh.. thing about that is the fact that I never saw any of these pictures anyplace through f- uh.. U.S. government auspices. We, members of the 470th MPEG Company, never received any copies of anything from the government, from the army, even though army photographers were- were there also and also representatives of the arm- eh.. the- the uhm.. Stars and Stripes newspaper. We never received anything from them and they never asked me for copies of my pictures. And after a period of time, you know, as time goes on you kind of forget these things and while I knew that I had done this and I had uh.. a- a uhm.. rather masterful collection of- of 52 photographs of the activity, uh.. uh.. I kind of lost sight of the fact that I had (laughs) e- even been involved with it until all of a sudden a magazine, one of the military magazines that I- that I uhm.. accomplish, that I read on a monthly basis, uh.. came up with a- a- with a uh.. expose of this, live PW exchange, you know, in France, World War II, wow! What? Where? When? Who? What? Pornic. Well, I was there. None of my pictures were there. They were not- not in the magazine.