Interview of John B. Scales
Transcript Number 409

Zarbock: Tape number 2, February 25, 2004, UNCW’s Library, interviewee Mr. Scales. Take it away. Tape number 2.

Scales:Tape number 2. The-- Uh.. The uhm.. uhm..-- Eh.. The great interest that I had relative to this live prisoner of war exchange was the fact that (laughs) for years I had never known where and precisely when did this actually take place. I knew that I was involved with it because I had the photographs but I had never made any- any specific reference back in those days to uhm.. either geographically or chronologically ascertain where and when other than the fact that I knew that I had taken the photographs and I had quite a- uh.. had 52 uh.. personal photos of it and uh.. lo and behold uh.. a magazine article appears in one of the military journals that I read and pertaining to this activity and—

Zarbock: What military journal was it? Do you remember?

Scales: I think it was the one that was called “World War II” but uh.. I m- I may be wrong. I get uh.. uh.. half a dozen of—

Zarbock: Who was the author of the article? Do you remember?

Scales: No, I do not, no.

Zarbock: We can always search that.

Scales: I think what this-- I believe what this person was is one of the friends of Jeroe Hodges, the uh.. young uhm.. uh.. American Red Cross individual who was- who effected the release of all of these prisoners of war both- on both sides of- uh.. because he uh.. effected the release of the Germans.

Zarbock: But you picked up this magazine and found out where you were and when you were there. Is that correct?

Scales: Yes. Yeah, it’s fascinating.

Zarbock: The fog of battle as to where you were and when you were there—

Scales: The fog- The fog of that is well—[ph?]

Zarbock: It’s a beautiful phrase, isn’t it?

Scales: It’s a beautiful phrase. (laughs) It means all things to all people.

Zarbock: Really where you were and when you were there, a very common experience in combat. I don’t know where I was and one day looks like the next but you were saying off camera that one of the sideboards of the history was the release of a particular, did you say English officer? What was that about?

Scales: Uh.. Captain M.R.D. Foot.

Zarbock: With an ‘E’?

Scales: No. F-o-o-t. Interesting. Uhm.. Was somehow involved with uhm.. clandestine operations behind the lines uhm.. and had ultimately been captured or had blundered into some French civilians which were not too happy with uh.. his activities or whatever and they turned him over to the Germans. Well, he was very wise in the fact that if the Germans had known that he had been a member of the SAS, the- the clandestine commando group that the British uhm.. uh.. put forth into France on a continual basis during World War II, they would have killed him outright just- (snaps fingers) just like that, no trial, no nothing, uh.. take him out, shot him, killed him, just like that. He ripped off any insignia that he had pertaining to the SAS off of his uniform and uhm.. he was able to survive even though he was uh.. somewhat wounded and- and not- not necessarily in- in the best of condition. In fact, he wound up in a German hospital and there’s much information pertaining to that in the material that uhm.. I will uh.. uh.. have copied for you. Subsequently, Foot was uhm.. uhm.. eh.. sort of an afterthought. Hodges knew that he was there with all the rest of those PWs, prisoners of war, Allies, and he uh.. made a specific effort to ensure that Foot was released. The Germans were very reluctant to do this and they said uhm.. uh.. Hodges told them this specifically, if- if uh.. you’re not releasing this uh.. one individual along with all the rest of them that you have agreed to uh.. the- the- the deal is off, finis la guerre, and they were, “What? You- You would uh.. deny the- the freedom of all the rest of these people for one British officer?” “Yes, even for one French private.” And so they knew that they had a- a- a hard case (laughs) that they had to work with.

Well, ultimately uh.. his uh.. uh.. attitude prevailed and they released Foot even though he was wounded and ultimately wound up in a hospital but survived interestingly enough. And uh.. so that- that went off extremely well and uhm.. uhm.. there I was not knowing anything about anything other than just taking pictures. (laughs) It’s really amazing that uh.. I was so oblivious to what was going on but the military was oblivious too because they never did anything eh.. in relation to- to us. My unit was never uhm.. given any honorariums or uhm.. uh.. we were never told anything and we—

Zarbock: When the prisoner exchange took place and 50 plus Allied military people were turned over to the Red Cross representative, what happened to them? Were they hustled away and by whom?

Scales: I- I really don’t know. Probably the 94th Division personnel and- and shipped off uh.. by truck to someplace. They- They were probably all sent through a- uh.. a hospital situation, maybe one of the general hospitals that they had in the area, 1,000 bed, that sort of a thing, because then they- they were given good food, clothing and clean- and cleaned up and, you know, made presentable and uh.. each one of them eh.. probably told a story pertaining to his capture and—

Zarbock: Debriefing and that stuff.

Scales: Debriefing and this sort of- and of course uh.. we in the 470th MPEG Company eh.. didn’t know nothin’ about nothin’ and uhm.. uh..—

Zarbock: Off camera I was looking at one of the photos and the inscription on the bottom. The photo is a photo of American, Allied troops all of whom are grinning broadly, marching through the MP lines, and it says “Allied soldiers, former prisoners of war, marched back to the American lines, etc., after the exchange November 29, 1944.” They have big grins on their faces—

Scales: Oh, my, yes, absolutely.

Zarbock: Merry Christmas.

Scales: One of our people, one of our people, and I don’t- I don’t even remember- remember his name uh... knew one of the PW’s, one of the released people. And there’s a photograph in-- a picture in there of uhm... him with- with that released prisoner.

Zarbock: Sure. One of the things we’ve said off camera was uh... the German prisoners uh... they- they were safe uh... as- as a prisoner of war. They were f out of the combat area-- activity. While returning them to their own uh... units, I would assume that the first thing that would happen was somebody would stuff a rifle in their hands and say, you know, “Get in that ditch and start protecting those--“ it’s dangerous going back to your own outfit.

Scales: Yes. I would suspect that is the case. Whether any of them uh… survived it or not is-- I think most of them did. They probably treated these people uh... with a little bit of tender loving care. What little they were capable of giving, you see, they were- they were all low on food because the Germans unfortunately in- in being hold up in Saint-Nazaire, Loire Leon uhm... had to feed-- they had to feed and maintain the French populous, had to feed and maintain the French populous and that was a chore and plus their own and uh...

Zarbock: And no supplies coming in if they’re surrounded.

Scales: There was- there was a- a factor of supply above and beyond our uhm... interlude with the Mongolians and this periodically Yookers[ph?] 52 twin engine transport plane painted black generally about 2:00 to 3:00 in the morning would fly over the city of Nauntes from the seaports Saint-Nazaire and Loire Leon, towards- towards Germany. This was arranged by the Red Cross. No allied fighters would shoot it down. No antiaircraft guns would get after it. It would land in Germany, load up on food, medical supplies, mail perhaps, things of this nature, and be permitted to fly back again. All under controlled Red Cross, International Red Cross, conditions.

Zarbock: Let me take- take you back to your unit after the exchange of prisoners. Did your unit continue uh... to provide services there or were you tran-- were you again uh... transferred to another part of the- of France or.

Scales: No. We stayed in Nauntes. But precisely when we left Nauntes we probably left Nauntes after- after the war had been uh... ended in Europe because I- I know that one day we’re loaded up on- on a train, a train, and uh... and driven down to uh... the sea- French seaport on the Mediterranean of Marseille where we were told that we were going to be uhm... reclothed, reequipped, issued new service ribbons for our uniforms and loaded on ships and shipped back to the states. Of course our- our moral factor was just way up here. You know, the-- lovely going back to the states. We were not gonna miss the- the fence in- in France at all. We- we could buy French wine back home. We didn’t need them. Leave them in Europe.

But it never took place. What happened three days before we were to be shipped out uh... the unit was disbanded, broken up, personnel were scattered hither and yawn and uh... I was shipped off uh... very happily so if- if I had to be in a place in- in France- in France during World War II, Paris would be the place. You know, la seta lel- la seta del la luniare (speaking in French), the city in lights. And that’s what happened. Took five days to get to Mars-- from Marseille to Paris. But it worked out well and uh... I was then bekind-- became a member of the Supreme Headquarters Allied Expedition Every Force General Eisenhower’s headquarters. And I would salute him periodically, click my heels and have fun and frolic in Paris on the times off.

Then loaded up on a train and shipped over to Frankfort over in Germany where we were occupying the uh... ING, the IG Fagan Industry guboida [ph?] (speaking in French). We loaded that beautiful beautiful office building five stories high, a full city block in- in all dimensions. Eisenhower had given special uh... orders to the 8th and 9th air forces, do not destroy the IG Fagan industry building. I want that for my headquarters. Interesting. We get there, no PW-- no- no prisoner of war uh... people to take care of or nothing like that. But foot patrols and jeep patrols in the city of Frankfort. So I wound up wearing white helmets and white leggings and white belts, just like all the rest of the MP’s. One of the things that was very interesting about that then after Eisenhower dictum was accomplished uh... for a quarter of a mile, half a kilometer or so, around the- the city the-- around the building IG Fagan Industry Building, all of the people that lived in the apartments that worked in the stores and factories and everything around there were physically moved away. They became displaced persons. DP’s. The place that- that whole area was empty of humans. Empty. But the buildings were unlocked and they were physically loaded with everything that those Germans could- could not carry with them. All of the furniture, all of the food in the refrigerators, all of the artifacts, all of the books in the library, clothing in their- in their closets. I mean everything that you could possibly imagine was still in the apartments and homes. The place was put off limits. I sneaked through one day. Naughty. Naughty. I wandered through some of these places. I was absolutely thunderstruck with all of the- the wonderful things that were in these homes. I- I recall seeing that one fellah must have gone through the uhm... Heidelberg University as- as a- as a student there because on the walls were several of the sabers that he had used in defending the honor of his family against others.

Zarbock: Dueling sabers you say?

Scales: Dueling sabers. Absolutely. And I can just imagine if I had met him he probably would have a scar on his cheeks because they deliberately did that- did that, you know. And uh... I- I couldn’t take any of these things because of the fact that, “Scales, where would you get those?” ”Well I- I, you know, I- I bought them from a-- no.” “Ahh.” You know, and I’d- I’d be incarcerated for the rest of the-- of my time.

Zarbock: But all personal property was abandoned and the people were ordered out?

Scales: They could take a few things on their back.

Zarbock: Who occupied the apartments and homes?

Scales: No one. Empty.

Zarbock: Okay. It was just it was a BMZ type thing.

Scales: Gunsalair. So, the one thing I was able to retrieve out of that situation was a (speaks in French), a five-language dictionary. And I still have it. I look at it periodically. I don’t use it -cause I don’t run across foreign words very often that I have to determine what they are, you know, conversely. But it was a- a French, German, Italian, English, and Latin. Very interesting. Beautiful piece of work about that- that thick. Hard bound. And I stole it out of the library. I don’t think the family members would miss it because it was print it was printed way back in the 1890’s or so. Very old . But if you wanted translated- translated words into the old European languages that would be the place to go. Not the modern dictionaries, you know. So ultimately I- I finally uhm... wound up in the- the French community of Biarritz in December of…

Zarbock: Spell that.

Scales: I’m sorry.

Zarbock: How do you spell it?

Scales: B-i-a-r-r-i-t-z. Biarritz. It has a meaning but I don’t know what it is. It was a- a one of the very very famous French holiday locations. Not on- not on the Mediterranean. But on the southern portion of the English Channel, just 20 miles north of the Spanish quarter. From the channel, Biarritz. And uhm... it was a place where they had somebody had-- founded the Biarritz American University, BAU. In December of ‘45, Eisenhower’s headquarters and others throughout Europe were given the opportunity to send people to Biarritz for three-day-- three-month stint to get back into the college affairs again. And- and some of the people had wound up there actually completed their degree program because they had had enough credits built up over the years in past that they all they needed was just another uh... six or five or six credits from bia-- BAU and they were given the- the university graduation papers and everything which they- they ultimately converted into the University of Maryland or something like that. And that worked out rather well and I was one of the ones chosen and uh... very happily so. I was excited about that of course. Get back into the swing of academics again. And I took courses in uh... chemistry and physics and English, I think, English. Uh... that went- went well and I stayed there for three months.

Ultimately shipped out to uh... moved to Laharv [ph?], France on a- on a liberty ship and half an hour after moving away from the French city seaport of Laharv, I was seasick. And that lasted for ten days. Because this little ship, this little cork, only 5,000 troops on board. Not enough weight to really keep it steady, bobbed like a cork. Ran into one of the last north Atlantic storms, typical, you know. That north Atlantic is a is a real doozy I tell you. And it knew I was coming. And uh... subsequently I was seasick for ten days.

Zarbock: Were you pulling duty as you came back to the states?

Scales: No. I just- just…

Zarbock: You’re now just a passenger.

Scales: Just a body. Just a body along with 4,999 others. So, I couldn’t get any food in my stomach. Luckily my fellows kept me alive literally by feeding me uhm...chocolate from candy bars that they were able to get from- from the galley and the- the PX rations and that sort of thing. And uhm... water. No milk. No coffee. Nothing. Just water bits and drabs of food that were able to purloin out of the kitchen. And uh... that was terrible. Well by the time I- I got off the vessel I was weak and I could-- one day prior to landing in New York City, the sea became like glass. Beautiful sunset. No not that. Sorry Robert. The sea became like glass. Beautiful, beautiful sunset. Just like the gulf of the water and everything and I was able to finally get up on deck and breathe some fresh air. And finally get some food in my- in my stomach. I had supper finally. I was able to hold it down because the ship was not rocking and rolling. Went up and- and pier 12 at New York City in New York harbor in the Hudson River, finally disembarked with 150-pound duffel bag on my back and hardly able to walk, staggered the- the gangplank. And what did I behold at the foot of the gangplank waiting for me with- with open arms but a pack of gray ladies of the Red Cross. These old volunteer gals wearing their gray outfits, little white cap, big Red Cross on it. And they were handing out to everybody fresh cold milk. Something that we had never had for almost three years. Fresh cold milk. What a rejuvenating beverage that was. I drank a half a gallon of fresh cold milk. And that perked me up like you have no idea.

And there I was only 20 miles from home. Hampstead, New York is only 20 miles from New York City. But they- they shipped they shipped up to Fort Dix, New Jersey where uh... staying there for about a week or so. We finally were- were repatriated back to civilian life on 16 April of 1946. And that ended my career as far as active duty, World War II was concerned.

But then after that I went back to Virginia Tech. My family had moved to Lynchburg, Virginia and uh... very close to Blacksburg, about 80 miles or so. And I was able to uh... get back into the swing of things, the chemical engineering department and- and uh... got into the Corps of Cadets once again, the ROTC program. But there I only had to spend uh... only two years as a cadet. And then in 1949 I earned my reserve commission as a Ordinance Officer, Second Lieutenant in Ordinance. But I was still a- a student at- at Tech. So I found a reserve home in Christiansburg, Virginia north of Blacksburg by about 10 miles or so. And uh... performed my weekend drill duties and things like that. But I was still a- a student at Tech. Ultimately switched to uh... ceramic engineering, high temperature chemistry. Uh... due to the fact that uh... my- my grades were not superlative. They were not like my number one son’s, David, 4.0. Mine were much, much lower than that. And uh... the chemical engineering department didn’t like that. And they said uh... “we don’t need you as a student anymore.” Which was typical because they essentially what they did constantly was to lay off, using that term loosely, they would discharge 75 percent of the- the student, students who were taking the course in chemical engineering. By the time they reached the tail end of their junior year, 75 percent of ‘em were gone. I was trapped into that so I never got a degree in chemical engineering. Although I learned a lot of chemistry in which stood me in good stead had I finally got into a civilian career.

So I- I wandered aimlessly almost for a day or two on the campus and trying to find a- a home. I didn’t want to leave. I still had GI bill that I had to expend. And uh... I- I blundered into the ceramic engineering department. Became one of fifteen students. The teachers taught the course. Chemical engineering? No. Go to the library and learn it on your own. But here the teachers actually taught the course. Book in hand, blackboard in hand, we worked out of both. And we actually went through it and went through laboratory courses, learned how to mix clay and make refectories, do pottery, and glazes and all of the chemistry, mineralogy and everything that was involved with- with ceramic engineering. I was in the top ten percent of that class. Straight A’s all the time. Wonderful. I mean it- it had academically doing what I wanted to do and- and I- I was perfect at it. Academically perfect at it. I think the only D that I got in- in my senior year at- at Tech uh... was I- I wanted to refresh my memory in- in French. So I- I as a- as an elective, I had a take ability there. I took a course in French. And my first uh... first quarter, straight A ‘cause they’re all- all I recalled all my GI French you see. And the next quarter, let’s see, ask the professor what happened here? “Well I don’t know. You’re- you’re just not studying are you?” Well I said, “Well no. I have problems,” and uh... continuing then the next quarter, uh... I- I knew that I was failing because I didn’t do half of the homework and uh... I told the professor, “Look, I’m involved a the ceramic engineering department. I have to write a thesis. I’m involved with- with actual laboratory work to- to both to this thesis. I don’t have time to spend on- on French. I really don’t. And I don’t need it in a technical sense.” I said, “I’ll take the examination at the tail end of the course but give me a D.” “You pass the course but you don’t get any credit for it.” So he gave me a D. So a B-- an A, a C, and a D in which fitted my scheduled rather well and I was able to uhm... continue my straight A courses through the ceramic engineering department and wrote a beautiful thesis. Got full credit for that and pass on the mac and everything.

Then I finally graduated in 10, June ‘51. 10th of June, 1. And uh... I- I stayed at Holing Lynchburg for a period of time uh... just relaxing and- and helping my dad and- and running the farm. It was a farm. Had an island in the middle of the James River and that’s where we lived. Big big beautiful house. Had been the- the old YMCA of Lynchburg. Swimming pool, river, billy goats, cattle, pigs, uh... all sorts of- of truck gardening, crops we delivered to the food stores in Lynchburg, beautiful life. Just just wonderful. Big beautiful build-- building and- and ten-foot wide porch that ran completely around the whole structure. Just a marvelous thing. And then I finally got a job offer in Cleveland at the Ferro Corporation. F-e-r-r-o, Ferro Corporation, manufacturing uh... ceramic colors and pigments and porcelain enamel for steel and uh... I joined Ferro worked my way through there. Then uh... hip hopped over to uh... Brush Beryllium Company, B-e-r-y-l-l-i-u-m, Brush Beryllium Company. They were involved with the uh... atomic energy commission. Uhm... manufacturing various beryllium chemicals which were used in atomic energy. Beryllium oxide used the ceramics, electronic ceramics. And last but not least I- I flip-flopped to U.S. Stoneware Company, Stoneware Company, S-t-o-n-e-w-a-r-e, Stoneware Company, Akron, Ohio. And uh... I became a- a sales engineer with a ceramic background for ceramics for the chemical industry since I was versed with chemistry and versed with the ceramics what a perfect marriage that was. I stayed there with-- over 11 years became the sales manager of their process equipment division and uh... just- just had a grand time with those people.

Zarbock: Let me take you back to your military career.

Scales: Yes. Of course.

Zarbock: Off camera I said one of the curiosities of life is that now that you’re on tape according to the tape you’ll never be a day older than you are right now. You’ll always be in the future the way you are right now. Tell me of your military experiences, I’ve asked all of the veterans this, what did you learn from this? Tell your children and your grandchildren what did you learn from being in the military in a wartime situation?

Scales: In a wartime situation specifically?

Zarbock: Yes.

Scales: Essentially discipline. Because we had to perform these particular duties under nonarduous conditions. But still had to perform a two on and four off every other day walking around a fence and uh... looking at a bunch of bedraggled human beings uh... who were uh... certainly very very miserable and not getting much food and uh... their quarters were shabby to say the least, and uh... most of them were probably in happy inwardly very happy to be out of it, not being killed any more. But some were still hard-core. And uh... I ran across some of those in my stint in Ruston, Louisiana. We got the crop from there, offer de core, very hard-core people. The Italians loved it. They were so happy to be out of it and they would sing and dance and carry on and finger game, you know, “Uno, dose, trace,” you know, it’s like that. But the Germans, it took them about six months to finally realize the fact that it, “Hey guys, it’s all over with. Peace and quiet. You can you can uh... go to sleep at night. You don’t have to worry about the American bombers coming over and you can grow fat on this GI food.” ‘Cause we were given they were given the same rations that we troops had. They had the same food we did. But they could fix it up. They’re- they’re chefs, chefs mind you, not just cooks, but chefs had been in the uh... military over in Germany _______________________ for 15 or more years. They knew- they knew how to do these things you see. Our guys were just recruits or- or draftees just like me. You know, six months, stick me, learn how to flip a pancake maybe or something like bake- baked-- learn how to cook some eggs or bacon. But nothing else. So this the rations that we got were quite good. The Germans knew how to take care of it. The Italians knew how to take care of it. Our guys, nah. They learned after about three years when we were finally overseas and had to- to make due. But uh... it was- it was an interesting- interesting program.

Zarbock: You’ve had an interesting life.

Scales: Well that’s only part of if. You see now that’s the active duty. But now when I get into the- the nonactive duty military, the reserve, I was a member of the Army Reserve for uh... and also the- the Georgia National Guard. 34 years. Eight years active duty and 34 years in the uh... reserve program.

Zarbock: Was the worth it?

Scales: Oh my god yes. Absolutely. I needed it desperately the money in order to raise a family of four children. But in addition to that I liked it. I was having fun.

Zarbock: What was your rank at time of?

Scales: I- I was a captain and I retired from uh... captain as an O3 uh... in uhm... June of ‘64. Then buying into a business manufacturing equipment for the chemical industry I saddled myself with lots of bank debts. I said, you know, I can’t, I don’t want to moonlight at night pumping gas or something like that in this little town of Peace Liverpool, Ohio where I had ultimately bought into. Economy manufacturing company. So I’ll just get back in the reserve program and have my drill weekends and I’ll just turn that money over to the bank. Sign the check and give it back to the bank, you see. Well that uh... didn’t work out exactly the way I had planned. I wanted to re-- I wanted to reinstitute my commission and work for my majority. Didn’t work out that way. And uh... they said, “Get out of here Captain Scales uh... you’ve already retired. We don’t need you anymore.” Well that was a bitter blow. But I moaned and groaned and carried on. They said, “All right, we’ll give you a gray determination as a noncommission officer.” “What’s the pay scale?” Gone. Sign me up instantly because I would get more money as a staff sergeant, E6, than I would as a captain because the captain’s pay stopped ex-- es- escalating at 14 years and I had over 20 and-- but the sergeants would “bbbbbbb” like a hyperbolic curve, you know. Five percent every two years. I ultimately after a number of unit changes and worked hard deliberately, lots of training and everything, uh... I finally made Sergeant Major. E9. Highest enlisted rank that you could achieve. Uhm... joined the National Guard in Georgia as a- an instructor of ordinance which I had been an Ordinance Officer of course. And uh... they said, “Get out here JB or-- we need you as a recruiter, active duty recruiter, full time.” And I was flabbergasted by that. Now I leaped at the chance. And once again, the- the pay scale hyperbolic curve, “bbbbbbb.” I got more mu-- more duties my first paycheck out of the- the military in Georgia than I did from the civilian company that I was working with.

Zarbock: You had an amazing-- you’ve had an amazing career sir. And I thank you for taking the time.

Scales: My pleasure.

#### End of Tape 2 ####