Interview of Mervin Hogg
Transcript Number 354

21 APRIL 2004
HAYES: All right, we’re here today and the date is April 21, 2004 and we’re here at Randall Library at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington. There are two interviewers, Paul Zarbock and Sherman Hayes from the University Library and we’re interviewing today, Mervin Hogg, in part of our “Military Heritage Series”. And, we generally start with really difficult questions. If you’ll give us, Mervin, your full name and date of birth...

HOGG: Mervin Eugene Hogg.

HAYES: There you go...

HOGG: December 5, 1924.

HAYES: All right. Good. And, although we’re concentrating on your World War II experience, we usually like to start with uh... getting a little background... up to that point. You didn’t just start in World War II, wholly done. So where did you grow up and where did you start at?

HOGG: I was born in Lawrence, Kansas. My father was working on his PhD in Anatomy at the University of Kansas. In 1926, we moved to Pittsburgh and he had a position at University of Pittsburgh Medical School. I lived there for 26 years and I ... not ‘til I... well, 20 years...

HAYES: Was he a practicing Doctor or an Academic?

HOGG: No, he taught Anatomy at Medical School, at the University of Pittsburgh.

HAYES: Interesting.

HOGG: And, I went through the schools... in Wilkensburg, which is a suburb of Pittsburgh. And, when I got out of High School... got a job... of course, the War had started. I graduated in 1942. I knew what was going to happen to me... (laughter). My Brother and I, in ‘43, we both got called. I ended up a 4-F with a hernia. Got that repaired, in May, and finally was inducted in the Army, in September.

HAYES: Well now, you talk as if this was a foregone conclusion. What was the mood, was it a resentment or anticipation, or, I mean what was... for us who are not in the War now, how... what was the times like? I mean... for an eighteen year old, what was...

HOGG: Well, uh... there were three of us, when we found out... heard about Pearl Harbor... that Sunday... I can still remember. There were three of us, my brother and a friend of ours, and myself and the friend’s girlfriend. Ran into him and his girlfriend there in the business section and we walked them home. The girl lived about a block and a half from where we lived. We were on her front porch. She went in the house and came back out and told us about the... her brother who was listening to the radio broadcast about Pearl Harbor. And, of course, we knew then what was going to happen. It was clear...

ZARBOCK: For the sake of the record... most... many people didn’t know where Pearl Harbor was. Did you know where it was?

HOGG: I... Pearl Harbor didn’t mean anything to me, but they said Honolulu. And, of course that did... that told us where it was. We knew what was going on. And, we knew it was war, it had to be, it couldn’t be anything else. And, of course, I was... let’s see this was in ‘41. December 7th is two days after my seventeenth birthday. My brother, he was a year and a half older than I was so... We knew it was just a matter of time.

HAYES: And there had been a build-up about the War with the German news and everything else so... Uh...

HOGG: Well, we knew we were essentially at war with Germany, anyhow. We’d heard stories. We knew what was going on in the Atlantic so it uh... it wasn’t really very... it was surprising but yet it wasn’t really all that surprising.

HAYES: So, you chose to get the “Induction Notice” that was the Draft.

HOGG: Yeah, we didn’t volunteer, any of us, we waited until they came after us (laughter). Come after us, they did.

HAYES: And you said you were working. What were you working at?

HOGG: I was working for a company, Union Switch & Signal Company. They made railroad signal equipment. Then, of course, it became an industry, a military industry before it was over with. They made a lot of 45 calibre pistols and, in fact, when I was taking Basic Training, I was given a pistol that had been made by Switch & Signal (laughter).

HAYES: (laughs) Oh, God.

ZARBOCK: You hadn’t made it though, right?

HOGGARD: (laughs) No, I hadn’t made it. I wasn’t working at the factory. I was working up in the drafting department. (laughs) And, I know they made a lot of 20mm shells because every night when I left work, well... I walked past the machine that was cranking them out. So...

HAYES: So they were already gearing-up, at that point... for... definitely switched-over for a...

HOGG: Well, it happened before I got into the Army. They were making that stuff... not initially they weren’t... but by the time I left, in ’43, why, they were going full blast... on military equipment.

HAYES: So you got the Notice. What happened?

HOGG: Well, I said... preliminary physical, I flunked. I ended up 4-F. And, that was in April and May when I went ahead and had the hernia voluntarily repaired. Then, in September, why, I was fit to go. Went to Mississippi, took Basic Training with the 63rd Infantry Division..

HAYES: And where out of Mississippi?

HOGG: Mississippi... it was about fifty miles um... from Natchez, Mississippi.

ZARBOCK: How long... how long was Basic in those days?

HOGG: Well, I went down there in September and we were through Basic just about Christmas time. And, it was 1st of January we were through. And, they asked for volunteers for overseas duty and me and my Second Gunner... why, we volunteered. They tried to talk us out of it but uh... it may have saved my life...

HAYES: What’s a... what’s a Second Gunner? What do you mean a Second Gunner?

HOGG: Well, I was a First Gunner on an Anti-tank Gun Squad.

HAYES: Oh, ok. Well, tell us... even in Basic you knew that, already? You know what I mean, I thought that was...

HOGG: Well, no... no. What happened is I was inducted at Fort Meade (sp?) in Maryland. And, all of us in Pennsylvania went into Fort Meade. The tests that I took up there, why... the radio test I took, apparently I scored fairly high because when I got down to Mississippi, the First Sergeant there, in Second Battalion Headquarters Company, told me I was scheduled to take Radio School. But, I was late getting there and it had already started. So, he said we’ll put you in Anti-tank Gun Platoon. (laughter)

HAYES: That was close! (laughter)

HOGG: Very close. Oh, that’s not the best part of it, yet... (laughs) We haven’t got to the best part of it, yet.

ZARBOCK: “The right way, the wrong way, or the Army way”... right? (laughter)

HOGG: That’s right... but uh, then I went into Basic with him. We did well with our training and so on. I can still remember what I did... when we did finally get a chance to fire those little old guns... those 37mm guns. I shot one time and hit the target all right... one of the few that hit it. There were nine guns and then a Tank Company. And, three in each of the three Battalion Headquarters Companies, that’s eighteen guns altogether. I don’t think more than about two or three of us hit that target (laughs). Second-time around, everybody knew I hit that target. The frame, the wooden frame... in pieces of wood... about like that (gestures with his hands). It was about 3’ by 2’, towed across in front of us. Well, I hit that leading edge and the target disappeared (laughs). That was the end of the shooting that day, by the way. We didn’t have a target.

HAYES: An anti... is this on wheels? An anti-tank gun is uh?

HOGG: A towed gun.

HAYES: A towed gun. Behind a jeep or a truck?

HOGG: Truck. One-and-a-half ton truck. These are 37mm that we trained on. The Army had already developed the 57mm gun and those were the ones that were being used by the Army, at the time, the 37 wasn’t big enough to do much of anything... certainly not even the 57 weren’t really an anti-tank gun. You could use them... use them for anti-personnel and stuff like that but uh... a German tank, it wouldn’t uh... it wouldn’t do anything to it. In fact, even the 3” guns wouldn’t hardly do anything. It took a 90 or the (inaudible) Tandem (?) Company’s 105’s... now those were hard on German tanks. Talking about ... they found that out one day in September... but... but, at any way, I ended-up going in the 90th Infantry Division which is up in Fort Dix. And, I got up there... why, I walked into the Rec Hall and a whole bunch of tables around there and I went to the “H” table and Sergeant there looked at my papers and saw that Spec number, cannon (?) your Spec number, “Oh, a cannoneer.” and put you in Cannon Company. “Ooo, wait a minute, I don’t want to go in Cannon Company. I’m one of those Anti-tank...” He said, “Well, they’re almost full.” So he said, “Ok.” So, he put me in Anti-tank Company. And, this is where the story gets a little bit better. They put me in the First Platoon, which was a Gun Platoon. Ok. But, then a Tank Company has had a Mine Platoon, a Fourth Platoon, which had a rather bad reputation... Understandably so... (laughs). I was in that Company for about 3, 4 days and they called out my name one evening, “Grab you ... mine and several others... take your piece and go over to the Supply Room.” Well, I took my carbine over there which is all right. I carried a pistol in Basic, but I had this carbine, now. I had the two of them hand me an M-1 rifle. I said, “Wait a minute. I’m not supposed to have an M-1.” They said, “You’re in the Mine Platoon.” “The Mine Platoon, I don’t know anything about mines.” (laughs) I ended-up in the Mine Platoon.

HAYES: Now what’s...

HOGG: The Army way!

HAYES: What’s a Mine Platoon? What’s...

HOGG: Anti-tank mines, anti-personnel mines.

HAYES: Then you were planting them or fixing them? Or blowing them up or what... or both?

HOGG: Both. Plus, its everything and anything else they wanted us to do when we finally got into combat. We were kind of a “jack of all trades”.

HAYES: Well, how did you train for something like that... I mean that’s kind of (inaudible)...

HOGG: I don’t know. You never did train. (laughs) (laughter in the background)

HAYES: You never did train? (laughter) I mean, what... you know... did you blow up mines? Is that what the training would be?

HOGG: My first experience with German mines is to blow them up. And, that was another experience.

HAYES: All right. (inaudible)

HOGG: We didn’t do our arithmetic, when we did that. It was in Normandy, on the 1st of July, when we started... the Division had started an attack... the Eighth Core... and they ran into a little mine field, the Germans had planted... twelve mines in a hardtop road. Of course, you put a mine in a hardtop road, you can see it a quarter of a mile away just about and it was holding people up. Well, the German anti-tank mine had about 12 pounds of TNT in them. And, the way you blow them is you have a half pound blocks of TNT that you furnish and you take those things and put a half pound block on top of each mine and connect them altogether with primer cord and then ignite the primer cord and it blows it all the whole bit. Well, like I say, we didn’t do our arithmetic. 12 x 12 is 144. 12 x a half is 6 more, 150 pounds of TNT. (laughs)

HAYES: There wasn’t much garden left.

HOGG: There was a hedgerow... probably about as far as that wall is from me... from that minefield and some of the guys, they wanted to ... one of them, in particular, he wanted to set it off and he wanted to set it off. So, they got down behind the hedgerow and there’s a tank sitting back there a little bit, that I got behind, and they set that thing off. And, “Get the shovels!” (laughs). We cratered that road. (laughs) I just couldn’t believe. I stood there and looked at it and just shook my head (still laughing). (inaudible)... had to fill up the hole.

HAYES: (laughs) Again. You didn’t get... you all didn’t get hurt, I hope?

HOGG: No. Nobody got hurt but they realized they were pretty close to (inaudible)

HAYES: Oh, boy. So, anyway, we’re back ... uh... Fort... back in the country, still... and, are you ready to ship-out at that point? Or, was it fairly quick... I mean...

HOGG: Dix?

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: No, we got into Dix right around the end of January, I don’t recall when because in the first of January, Basic was over... then I got a one-week furlough to Pittsburgh and came back. I was still back with that Division, in Mississippi, for another week or two before we finally moved out. Our train went up to Fort Dix. And, we were at Fort Dix until into March. There about a month and we went from there to Kilmer (sp?), Camp Kilmer, in New Jersey. Stayed there a week and then we went to New York and got on a ship.

HAYES: Which was?

HOGG: Its the... want to say the “Leif Erikson”... but its not the “Leif Erikson”... “John Erikson” (sp?) is the sister ship of the (inaudible)... sister ship of the “City of Good Hope”, if you remember that hospital ship? There were two ships. They were Norwegian ships. They were the largest diesel-powered ships in the world, at the time. And, uh.. “The City of Good Hope”, they were both taken by the United States. I guess they were in American ports, at the time the War started... Germany declared War on us. And, they invaded Norway, anyhow, so we just kept the ships. Used one as a hospital ship that was in the Pacific and the other one was the one we went over to England in.

HAYES: Troop transport.

HOGG: Yeah.

ZARBOCK: Let me backup on something, again for the record, when you said you’re in Mississpi... You got a week’s leave... a week’s leave... you’re going to go from Mississippi to Pennsylvania and back to Mississippi...

HAYES: ...in a week?...

ZARBOCK: ...and you’re going to go by train. Who paid?

HOGG: I did. Actually, a Lieutenant paid. But, I gave him his money back when I got back in (laughs).

ZARBOCK: But, the point being, if you’re on vacation... vacation... on Military Leave, and you want to go from point A to ... it doesn’t make any difference, Sir, it’s on your dollar, is that correct?

HOGG: Back then it certainly was.

ZARBOCK: Now, if you’re being transferred...

HOGG: Oh, if you’re being transferred, why then the Army transfers you. But there was a whole trainload of people went from the 63rd to the 90th in that transfer. We all went by “troop train”. It was a good size train.

ZARBOCK: But there are cases on record where someone was granted a leave and couldn’t go, where ever they wanted to go, because they simply didn’t have the money.

HOGG: Yeah, that’s true. I didn’t have the money I wouldn’t have been able to go but I asked one of the Lieutenants, in the Company, wasn’t even my Platoon Leader, one of the other ones, he loaned my the money.

HAYES: Then your folks helped you out when you...

HOGG: Yeah, when I got home my folk gave me back and I paid him back when I got back.

ZARBOCK: You were probably making... what, 21 a month?

HOGG: Not much more than that. PFC at the time.

HAYES: But, then it was... the trains they subsidized for military travel, they kept the rate low, didn’t they? I mean...

HOGG: Not that I know of...

HAYES: Oh? Interesting.

HOGG: They went down to...

HAYES: But where did...

HOGG: (inaudible) McCone (sp?) ...is where we did and got on the Illinois Central because its right on that Main Line from Chicago to New Orleans and went from there up to Paducah (?) then got on a train, changed trains at Paducah and went on up to Louisville... Louisville or Cinncinati. I guess it was Cinncinati. Got on a “Pennsy” and then we went from Cinncinati on to Pittsburgh.

HAYES: What did it take you... how long did it take you? A whole day?

HOGG: Less then a day. We left in the afternoon. We got up there the next morning.

HAYES: Well, that wasn’t bad. So you did have a break then because we’re wondering if you’re travelling the whole time.

HOGG: No... no. Those trains, back then, they ran. Even that old steam engine that run from Cincinnati to Pittsburgh, it was making time (laughs). I was counting... the mile stones and we were doing 70mph up that track.

HAYES: Wow. All right, so tell us a little bit about the troop ship, what... this is thousands and thousands of (inaudible)...

HOGG: Well, we got on the troop ship. We started out and joined the Convoy and I don’t know if we even got out of New England or out of Long Island Sound but according to the book they had engine problems. We heard at the time it was the main refrigeration unit... it had gone up on them. They turned us around and park us back at the Hudson River Pier in New York City. We set there for three days looking up the street at the Empire State Building. One fellow in the Platoon could almost see his home from where we were on the troop ship. I guarantee you nobody got off that ship. (laughter)

HAYES: Because they didn’t think they’d come back... is that...

HOGG: Nobody got off that ship! Then we left again... sailed... landed in Liverpool on Easter Sunday. April 7th, I guess it... or April 8th, I think it was.

HAYES: This is after “D-Day” by a certain...

HOGG: Oh, no... this is before “D-Day”...

HAYES: Oh, its before...

HOGG: ...this is April ‘44...

HAYES: Ok.

HOGG: ... went on in central England, south of Birmingham, and we stayed there ‘til about the middle of May, I guess it was. And, then we transferred from there down to another Camp that was just outside of Newport, in Wales. We stayed there for a week and that was where they gave us all our ammunition, explosives and everything. We knew something was going to happen! And, on the 4th... of June... why, they loaded us up on another transport ship there in Newport. We were out to sea on the 6th. We knew where we were going. And, we landed on the 8th.

HAYES: We have images of bigshots coming to talk to the troops and so forth, I mean, were they keeping you informed or was it pretty secretive?

HOGG: No. No. There was no information given until “D-Day” and after it started on that morning, why they announced over the loud speaker system what was happening and where. But until then, we had heard absolutely nothing. We didn’t know whether we were going to France or going to Norway or going to Africa.

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: It was some rumors about that we’d be going to Africa or Italy... somewhere. But, uh... we didn’t know where we were going.

HAYES: And, what was the ship that you were sitting out to sea on... I mean was this your whole Division?

HAYES: “S.S. Excelsior” No, it was... well, what they call the Special Units Battalion which is Headquarters... Regimental Headquarters Company Cannon, Company Service, Company... and Anti-Tank Companies. I guess it was First and Second Battalions were on that ship. (inaudible)...Battalion was on another ship.

HAYES: How many men do you think were on that ship then... just guess...

HOGG: Over 2,000.

HAYES: 2,000.

ZARBOCK: Everyone have a bunk or did you have to swap off... night on a bunk...

HOGG: Far as I remember, we each had our own bunk, I don’t remember. I don’t remember swapping off. I can’t say we didn’t but I don’t remember doing it. On either ship, as far a I know.

ZARBOCK: Feed you twice a day or did you...

HOGG: Yeah.

HAYES: So, were you... so you’re sitting off and what happens next then?

HOGG: On the 8th?

HAYES: Yeah. What... where?

HOGG: Well, crawled down a cargo net and got into LCI’s and went on in and hit the Beach... which was a nice pleasant day. According to the book, they started disembarking, at 11:58, I recall, in the morning. I got off around 12 or 12:30... 12:30 or 1:00. Beautiful day! I think the English Channel was calm. I think it was high tide. And we were very lucky, they ran that LCI right up on the Beach. Got off in the water and it wasn’t even ankle-deep (laughs) and walked on in a little ways and assembled. And, then we had to walk on inland. Of course, I don’t know if you understand... Utah Beach... there’s this swampy area behind the Beach. And, the Army figured that Utah was going to be the real difficult Beach. That’s the reason the 82nd Airborne was dropped behind Utah and not behind Omaha. They thought Omaha would be the “piece of cake”. And, but it uh... so they had the Airborne behind the Utah. But, then we were told to stay off the causeways. There were several causeways that go across that swampy area and stay off of there... if there’s any traffic, walk through the water. Well, there wasn’t any traffic so we walked across the causeway (laughter) (inaudible)... after our Company Commander walked us through a mine field (laughs). Which was an experience, too. Sign: “Auchtung” (?) and we walked past those things and barbed wire... (inaudible) removed...

HAYES: Had someone else cleared the Beach, at this point or ...

HOGG: Well, this was D-2.

HAYES: D-2.

HOGG: It was pretty well cleared. It was very quiet day as far as firing was concerned. There was a Cruiser, about five or six miles down the Beach from us, that was firing a round every now and then... but other than that, it was perfectly quiet.

HAYES: Interesting. Just on D-2.

HOGG: Uh... hmm. That evening, when they brought the vehicles in, they had to come in by LST. And, somebody said that there was a “burp gun” or a machine gun, German machine gun that fired on that but... that could not have been anywhere near the Beach where we were, because the portion of the Beach, that we landed in, had been cleared in both directions... quite a little ways. You get down towards the end of it, why, you could run into some trouble. We had no problem at all. We walked inland about three or four miles and waited that night until vehicles got into us. Next day we were able to go through St. Mary Gallee (sp?) and some other places up into Picauville which was really in the central portion or center of the peninsula. The “front line” had really been cleared almost all the way into the middle... the Germans, you see, with the Airborne Division landing where it landed, the Germans couldn’t set up any kind of defensive line because we’re Airborne scattered all over the place and they kept the Germans completely disorganized and it wasn’t until we got up to the road, that went from... I think its Valonne down to some place... I’ve forgotten what it is... its on the map... which goes down the center of the Peninsula and it was on that road that the Germans managed to set up a defensive line. And, that was where the real fireworks started but that wasn’t until the 9th, evening of the 9th and then the 10th all hell broke loose...

HAYES: Where were you... want were you doing?

HOGG: Oh, running... We were going back and forth trying to keep away from the “88”. There was an “88” I think in there. The Germans had wanted to get one of our trailers. We got off into one field and they fired a round in there and wounded both our Platoon Leader and our Platoon Sergeant. We got on the trucks and went someplace else. They started shooting at the trailer again and put one round over it, one round under it, next round over it... hit a tree right behind the trailer, twice.

HAYES: And what did you have in the trailer. Is this the explosives?

HOGG: Oh, we had a thousand pounds of TNT! (laughs)

HAYES: (exclaims) Oh!! (laughs)

HOGG: Excuse me, 2,000 pounds! We had a ton of TNT in each of those one-ton trailers... (laughs) 360 pound anti-tank mine plus a couple cases of TNT (laughs).

HAYES: So how many guys were in your Unit tied to those trucks?

HOGG: There were 25 of us in the Mine Platoon.

HAYES: And, the two vehicles were your raw materials?

HOGG: We had two trucks, two one-and-a-half ton trucks with one-ton trailers and one jeep.

HAYES: And, you said you didn’t really have any serious training, so at this point you’re just making it up or... the other guys telling you what to do or...

HOGG: Yeah, I had a little bit of knowledge... They had some firing devices for anti-personnel mines and I got to look at when we were at Fort Dix but that was it. Somewhere down along the line I got a little booklet on mines and firing devices but that was a 20th Core book and I couldn’t have gotten that book until after the breakthrough at St. Low. Couldn’t recall exactly when I did get it but we weren’t in the 20th Core until then.

ZARBOCK: But your Platoon Sergeant’s been knocked-out?

HOGG: Yeah. One of the Squad Leaders took over the Platoon until he was killed and then they sent us a Lieutenant. So, then we had a Lieutenant for a while (laughs). But he didn’t like the Platoon, either. He was kind of a nice fellow... easy going... but he didn’t like...

HAYES: Well, what was it... a rough Platoon? I mean you...

HOGG: Well, if you want the history of an Anti-tank Company... Anti-mine Platoon... I found this out when I got into the Platoon at Dix.

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: The Squad Leader told me the history of all this stuff. We’re hand-picked men. But, when the Division was activated in ’42 there were no Anti-tank Companies in Infantry Regiments. But, when the Division went on “Louisiana Manuevers”, the African Campaign had already started and the Army High Command found out that they needed some kind of anti-tank capability in the Infantry Regiment so they decided to create these Anti-tank Companies... three Platoons, three guns in each Platoon. And, probably the Battalion Platoons, as well. Uh... but they needed men for the Company. So, they went to the various Commanders in the Regiments and asked for volunteers. (laughter) And, he knows the story (pointing to Zarbock). The Company Commanders...

HAYES: Oh, ....cleaned house... they cleaned house?

HOGG: The “You, you and you’s...”, were the ones that these Commanders thought were not very likely to not have successful military careers (laughter) ...that’s what ended-up in the Anti-Tank Company... (laughter continues) ... ones that ended-up on the “California Manuevers”, again the High Command found out that they needed some sort of anti-tank mine, anti-personnel mine capability and uh... in their Infantry Regiment so they decided to create these Mine Platoons... Force (?) Platoons and they went through this same process. And, they went to the Platoon Commanders and said, “We need volunteers.” And, the volunteers, of course, the “You, you and you’s” were the people the Platoon Leaders thought were least likely to have successful military careers (laughs)... That’s what ended-up in...

HAYES: If they got blown-up somebody didn’t care?

HOGG: That’s about right... Well... (laughs) the sooner, the better... for some of ‘em.

HAYES: (laughing) ... Oh, jeez!

HOGG: But, I joined the Company at Dix... (inaudible) had got into a Gun Platoon, First Platoon. And, almost immediately I was transferred to the Mine Platoon. Well, I didn’t know anything about this history until after I got into the Mine Platoon and I wondered, “Why on Earth did I get in here?” Well, when we were in England our Platoon Leader, Geski (sp?) was his name, got a little bit talkative, one night, evening before Mason (?) and he said that when he first came into the Company, he had a Gun Platoon, which was all right with him, but none of those Platoon Leaders wanted to have anything at all to do with this Mine Platoon. But, he didn’t get along very well with the Captain apparently, which nobody else did either but... anyway, he got transferred to the Mine Platoon... (laughter) and, he said it made him mad as hell! (inaudible) he walked (?) into that Mine Platoon... But he said after he was there about two, three weeks he began to realize he had the best Platoon in the Company. (laughs) So, at Dix, when we got all these new replacements in he said that he looked them over and tried to figure out which ones he thought would fit in best to this Mine Platoon and asked to have them transferred. Well, I was one of them and I was standing there listening to him and wondering, “What on Earth did I do to get me into this outfit?” (laughs; laughter in background)

HAYES: Looking back saying, “Who did I offend?” Is that...

HOGG: But, that was how I ended-up in the Mine Platoon. I never did get a chance to ask him. If I ever run into him again...

HAYES: And yet, they were all excellent soldiers. I mean, they weren’t shirking their duty...

HOGG: No, they didn’t. They didn’t do that but they were not excellent soldiers.

HAYES: Oh, all right.

HOGG: You know that, as far as the Martinet was concerned, you could certainly... got into all kinds of trouble... We had two people that when we were in England they go into Kidderminster, on Pass, and they come back late every Monday morning and had some others did the same thing. The Company Commander, he was having a fit every Monday morning... these people... he’d put them on Company punishment. One came in late, one Monday morning and he was going to really fix him up so he put him under arrest, went to the Colonel... was going to charge him with “desertion in the face of the enemy”. Colonel threw him out of his office. (laughs) But, we were always on the “Black List” of the Company Commanders in that Company until we got to Dillingen in Germany. And, that was a story there because they took the Platoon and split us up... one Squad with each of the three Rifle Companies in the Second Battalion and when we crossed the Saar River what we do... we cross right into the Siegfried Line with “pill boxes” on about every corner. And, uh... the Second Battalion was a Reserve Battalion, the First and Third crossed before daylight and then the Second... the Engineers got a footbridge across. E Company got across on the footbridge and got pinned-down by a “pill box” that was right near... in fact... if you have that little book on the Regiment. I think there’s a picture of that “pill box” in that book. I think it’s the same one that pinned-down E-Company on the bank of the river. But they managed to get up there... the Platoon Squad Leader managed to blow the door off that thing and force their surrender. And, then F and G Company... the rest of us got on across the river on the footbridge. The footbridge was knocked-out that night by German artillery. But anyway, the Platoon in Dillingen got credited for taking nine German “pill boxes” and capturing about seventy or eighty Germans...

HAYES: All of a sudden.

HOGG: Yeah. While the Division was on that side of the river, Patton issued an order to break-up all the Anti-tank Companies and use them for Infantry replacements. When General Van Fleet, our Division Commander... one of two things happened, and I don’t know which it was but there was a rumor going around that Van Fleet, when he’d been a Regimental Commander had had a lot of trouble with his Cannon Company and he was now our Division Commander and instead of breaking-up Anti-Tank they broke up Cannon Company ... temporarily, they reformed it on, after we got back. But, anyway, the other story was that the reason they didn’t break-up Anti-tank Company was because the Mine Platoon had taken those nine “pill boxes”. And, you can imagine our Company Commander you... We were his “fair-haired boys” there for about two or three weeks until we got back across the Saar again. And, somebody did something and we were (laughs) back on his List again. (laughter)

HAYES: Back on his List again. (laughs) All right... well let’s get back on a sequence here. You’re being chased by German ‘88’s and so forth...

HOGG: Normandy?

HAYES: Yeah, let’s get back... we don’t want to go too fast forward. So...

HOGG: ... (inaudible) rest of Normandy... it was just... we never really got involved very much in the rest of it other than the fact that we’d go out on the roads looking for mines with the mine detector and so on...

HAYES: So that was... so we still have these pictures of people with... that was your group with the mine detector...

HOGG: There was another...

HAYES: What is that called that long...

HOGG: Oh, its just a metal detector. You can go in the store and buy metal detectors now which amounts (?) to the same thing. These were the first ones that were ever developed but... the ones you buy now are simpler little devices and probably a lot more sensitive too.

HAYES: And what would you guys do with that? Would it beep. Would it go off?

HOGG: Yeah. It would just beep... it was an indicator on it, that uh... (gestures with his finger) that would indicate you were getting a signal... getting a reaction.

HAYES: And roads were your main target because the fields... what would you do with the fields?

HOGG: ... (inaudible) Yeah, we were there to keep roads... make sure the roads were clear so that Regimental traffic wouldn’t be uh... disturbed by it. And then, this is usually what they sent us out to do on a road that they wanted to use and then they were afraid to use because of mines. The AC? used about all black top roads and any mines in the roads, like I said, you could see them for a hundred yards, you didn’t have to worry about that. So, the shoulders of the roads were the only things we were really interested in. Uh, one mine field that we ran into, why that was very obvious that it was there. It was the only one we ran into into Normandy. The only other mines that I know of ... well, its another a peculiar story, really... a funny story. It was at Filee (sp?) Gap its at Valley where we were finally... they’d gotten the German Seventh Army trapped. But, the First Battalion... uh... had asked us to check out a road, up towards the Valley they want to use for getting ammunition and rations up to... I think it was “C Company”. So we went out there and the Battalion had set up their “CP” in a big house and a big front yard...

ZARBOCK: I’m sorry, a “CP” is a... ?

HOGG: Command Post. Uh... the “Eagles” in the front yard. We pulled in... parked... got out, got our mine detectors out, went down the road as far as we’re supposed to go, came back, got back in the truck and left. Next morning, it was one of the Gun Platoon trucks was in there... they started to back up and their right front wheel hit a mine. (laughs) The Germans had mined the field, they hadn’t mined the road. (laughs)

HAYES: Well... what ... did you have to come back then and clear that field... or they just avoided it?

HOGG: No. No. They never called us back to do it. Actually, clearing mine fields was Engineers’ responsibility. The only thing that we apparently had any responsibility for was just limited to clearing roads and making sure that the Regimen can move... we were direct support, we never cleared a mine field, as such.

HAYES: And, why would that be engineering... the different technique... or... ?

HOGG: (sighs)... its just the Engineers...

ZARBOCK: The Army, in its wisdom, said, “You’re going to do that!”.

HOGG: We only laid one mine field and that was after we came back from the Saar River. But the only time we got involved in stuff like that was when there were no Engineers available... they were all doing something else. And, that was when we got called on usually to do it. Or, some little thing that might be holding up some... one of the Units in the Regiment.

HAYES: Now were you... did you have a sense of confidence that any mine you could detect and get rid of or was it an “iffy” thing... I mean... uh...?

HOGG: It was an “iffy” thing. The thing is... mines, if its just the anti-tank mine, itself, it’s no real problem because the shear pin on those things is designed to shear at about 250 pounds and a man 130... 150 pound man could walk through a mine field with no problem as long as he didn’t try to run. If he tried to run through the thing then he’d come down hard and set off the mine. If there were no anti-personnel mines, you know the little anti-personnel mines that they had put in there, they had uh... a unit in there that would fire off about 15 pounds and that would get you... mostly... those things would blow a foot off... And we added about a quarter pound (inaudible).

HAYES: Is that what you called them, “anti-personnel mines” or were they called something else?

HOGG: Well, the ones is the ground were just “anti-personnel”. Now the booby traps are something else. They’re something that have a firing device attached to... like a gun somebody might see... picks it up, and pulls on the trip wire and sets the thing off. Or a house, where they’ll hook up to a door and blow the door off. They did some in Dillingen... they’d take some TNT and set it inside a stovepipe of the stove with a fuse on it. Then, if you’d lit a fire in the stove why then it would explode that thing... do that kind of thing... those were booby traps.

ZARBOCK: And bodies were occasionally booby-trapped, too.

HOGG: Yeah, in Japan. I don’t know of any body in Europe. They did that in Japan, I know. But, I don’t think the Germans ever did that.

HAYES: So did you run into any of the anti-personnel? No, because you were on the roads, more?

HOGG: No, we ran into one field with the anti-personnel at the Islands (?). They had a whole lot of these... what they call “shoe mines” but the word's not “shoe”, its “Schuh”. It’s a German word and I don’t... I never looked the thing up in a dictionary to find out what “Schuh” means in German. I don’t think its “shoe”, its probably something else. But, there was a field of those things there on the Island. We didn’t clear them we just saw them.

HAYES: Uh... just as a point of reference, Gayle Wendell (?), that you know, talked about “Schuh mines” because he in his Division lost several people hit with their foot. I mean, in other words...

HOGG: You’d... those little things were just a moving box with a lid on it. And, the Germans had a firing device with kind of a T-shaped safety pin. But, these were release-type firing devices. In other words, they had a device... they had three basic devices. One was a pull-type igniter, you’d pull on it and it would fire, one of them was a release type so that you set it and you’d tighten up the trip wire, you pulled out the safety pin, if somebody cut the trip wire it would fire. And, then they had a third type which was a pull release... it would do either one. And, this particular type that they had in these little “Schuh mines” was that release type and it was built kind of a notch in the wood and it was set down on that firing pin which stepped on to push the firing pin out.

HAYES: Well, how would you clear a field of those, though? I mean that...

HOGG: If you knew what you were dealing with... of course, they were right at the surface, you could simply take the top off of it... pull the firing pin out and throw them away... not the firing pin, pull the firing device out...

HAYES: So you’d look, in other words, you had a team of people that would just walk very... (Mervin nods) Oh, great.

HOGG: They’re easy... the other kind... the worse kind, what some people call “The Bouncing Betty”, was a German Hess mine. And, that thing was a tin can... uh... with a can inside of a can. And, there was a little charge down at the bottom, and an igniter on the top. And, you set it on its... you stepped on the igniter it would light a fuse and about... what, six seconds, I think it was, it would burn down to that bottom charge and it would blow the can, the inside can up... about six feet up off the ground and then that would explode and it had ball bearings...

HAYES: Oh... God.

HOGG: and with a charge on it... (inaudible) We ran into one of those things and it was kind of funny, really, because we had stopped at this house somewhere, it was in Germany, and a little boy about 12 years old, he come to us, “Come here, come here!”. He took us out and showed us the mine. (laughs) He didn’t like having that mine in his backyard. (laughs)

HAYES: Can’t blame him.

HOGG: We took that out.

ZARBOCK: You know, since everybody in your Outfit was... you know, facing the same dangers, did that help develop “esprit des corps” or uh... how... what did that do for your Platoon? ... I mean any of... you could have been blown up, at any time.

HOGG: Yep... it... I can only say that I really don’t know. Its awful hard to analyze yourself under circumstances like that and how you relate to other people. I don’t know of any difference in how we related to each other...

HAYES: Compared to any other group, you mean?

HOGG: Of course, I was pretty much of a stranger and I hadn’t been in that Platoon very long and most relationships had already developed. Uh... there was one other fellow that came in the same time I did. He was an Engineer and I think he... well, he had an Engineer “Spec” number. If you know what “Spec” numbers are... everybody had a different one and he, I think, had had “Explosive” experience in civilian life and certainly he’d had “Explosive” experience when he... Engineers... when they took training with the Engineers. And, he was deliberately put into that Platoon because of his “Explosive” experience. And, both of us being new, we kind of buddied-up and went on Pass together a few times there in New York. When we got over into combat, why we still kind of stuck together and because we had the explosives with us, we’d always carry a knapsack of explosives with us in case we ran into a minefield. And, we’d walk “point” ... we’d get up front. The platoon was out on... walking down the road... we’d stay up front. We’d keep our eyes open, in case we ran into anything that we didn’t... (laughs) he was left-handed and has a “Tommy” gun, so he walked on the left side, this way (gestures). I was right-handed with a rifle and I was on this side, walking this way. I was watching that side, he was watching that side. (laughs) So we...

HAYES: Now, when you say... was this the whole Mine Platoon or... Rifle Platoon behind you?

HOGG: Mine Platoon.

HAYES: Mine Platoon.

HOGG: (inaudible) mine detectors... they had one on one side of the road and the other on the other side of the road. We’d get about fifty yards out in front of them.

HAYES: And, then... were there times when the Germans were still close enough that you had to use self protection?

HOGG: We never ran into anything like that.

HAYES: Good.

HOGG: We were... never knew where we were... we never knew what was out there in front of us. And, uh... Ellison (?), he was the Engineer when we crossed the Saar, because he was an Engineer, they grabbed him and transferred him back to the 315th Engineering, because they knew they were going to need Engineers when we crossed that River. And, they needed them badly. Trying to get a bridge in... they never did get a bridge in to cross that River. We was over there two weeks and they never got a bridge, other than a foot bridge, they got across the first morning and it got knocked-out that afternoon with artillery...

HAYES: So how’d people get across?

HOGG: Ferry. They finally min... finally managed to get a ferry working. We got some tanks and some anti-tank guns across and some vehicles but they had to ferry them across they never brought them across...

HAYES: And, you went across on the footbridge?

HOGG: On a footbridge, yeah. And, coming back... we came back in assault boats. But, he’d transferred and it kind of left me by myself in the Platoon. But, we had gotten a new Lieutenant and he was a real “hot shot”, “go-for guy”... So he started walking “point” with me whenever we (inaudible)... until he was killed. And, this was another thing about anti-tank mines. He got killed by a mine....

HAYES: Hmm.

HOGG: ...but uh, it was a little town and it was a very, very unfortunate situation because the Squad I was in had been sent up to work with “I Company” and we were with “I Company” at the time. And, we had attacked downhill, down into uh... a little town. But, we had had about a one inch snowfall, the night before. And, when we walked down the road, into that town we walked right over that minefield, never knew it was there... covered up with snow. Later on that morning, a tank came down and hit a mine. And, exploded... blew the track on the thing. It was just sitting there. There had been some artillery shelling going on around there. And, what it had done, it had sensitized the shear pin on the mine. They said that Lieutenant, he come there by himself... I would have been standing right beside him if I had been with “I Company”. They say he took out his trench knife and started clear the dirt off the top of it and it exploded. Killed him. And, I would have been standing right beside him, if I hadn’t been...

HAYES: ...oh, you’d been detached up to that other Company?

HOGG: Um... hmm.

HAYES: Now, does that... did you have to go back and clear that whole field, then? Or, did you ust avoid it?

HOGG: No, they never called on us to do it. I don’t know what happened to the rest of it. But, they did it themselves. I was still up with the Company the rest of that day and I didn’t even know about it until later on. We weren’t very far away... weren’t probably a hundred yards away from it, at the time.

HAYES: Oh.

HOGG: But, we didn’t know anything about it until we pulled-out, later that day, to go back and re-join the Platoon and uh...

HAYES: Well, let me ask you the... psychological question that happens... I mean, this is the second and third time that you have somebody, that supposedly is a Leader of yours... they’re shot or killed or whatever and then they just plug-in another person?

HOGG: Um... hmm.

HAYES: And...

HOGG: Whose ever in the Platoon Squad Leaders, is what happened both times. Of course, I think we had a Platoon Sergeant at that time, he had come back to us and was still with us.

HAYES: And, then... automatically, he’s in charge and you just go ahead.

HOGG: Um... hmm. Yeah.

HAYES: See, I find that fascinating that you would just ... uh... ‘cause you had relationships, you had feelings, but you just keep going, huh?

HOGG: (nods) You look in that Battalion History... at the end... at the end of the War, where it gives the Roster of the Company Commanders of the Platoon, you’ll find in several Platoons that a Staff Sergeant is in command of the Platoon. There’s no Lieutenant, no Tech Serg... Tech Sergeant... a “five-striper” was really a Platoon Sergeant. A “four-striper” was a Squad Leader. So you had Platoons being led by a Squad Leader.

Hayes: And, how many people are in a Platoon?

HOGG: In our Platoons, 25, Rifle Platoons, 36. No, it was more than 36, really, because there were three, 12-man Squads in a Rifle Platoon...

ZARBOCK: Almost 50.

HOGG: ... the Platoon Leader, the Platoon Sergeant, Drivers, Cooks, and so forth...

HAYES: What would an Officer manage then... how big of a group would an Officer lead?

HOGG: Platoon. Lieutenant. Captains of Companies.

HAYES: So a lot of non-commissioned folks ended-up leading their...

HOGG: Oh, yeah.

HAYES: Because they got... the others got killed or wounded.

HOGG: Some cases it was... I know I heard of one case, I think it was on the 10th, when everything was... got tore-up real bad, that there was a Paratrooper ended-up leading one of our Platoons. (laughs) Officers and “Non-Coms” had gotten killed and they didn’t know what to do. The Paratrooper happened to be there and made 2nd Airborne... they ended-up taking over the Platoon. There’s usually, for some reason there always seems to be somebody... hopefully, who will take over. And...

HAYES: Because you didn’t know... that’s what I’m saying... because when you’re fighting its a very fluid situation and when you’re fighting you haven’t got a clue, right, as far as... what’s going on, necessarily.

HOGG: It gets pretty desperate when you don’t have anybody to take over situations like that. That’s when things get rough.

HAYES: Yeah. Now, you’ve... where was the entrance to Germany? Was that the River that you talked about before... Saar... was that going into to Germany?

HOGG: We were... of course, the Saar is completely inside of Germany...

HAYES: Right.

HOGG: ...the French-German border is a few miles west of the Saar River...

HAYES: Ok.

HOGG: Between the Moselle and the Saar. I don’t know exactly where it was but it was pretty close to the Saar River because when we pulled back from the Saar, the Platoon and the Company, I guess Regimental CP was in the town in France but the rest of all the Rifle Company Battalions were up on the Saar River itself so we were just within a mile or two of the German border.

HAYES: Now did you... could you see a material stiffening as you went into their own country in other words was the resistance radically different or...

HOGG: In fact it was...

[RECORDING INTERRUPTION]

HAYES: [to audience] We had... unbeknownst to you folks listening, we had taken a brief break and you had mentioned about laying mines. Were there times you were ask to lay mines? Mainly, you were clearing roads. But, were there times when you were laid mines, yourself?

HOGG: One time, when we pulled-back from the Saar River and went into a defensive position, they wanted us to lay a mine field next to a road and put a heavy charge under the road itself so if the Germans did cross the Saar itself and attack... what they were afraid of, you see... the “Battle of the Bulge” started on the 16th of December and we were across the Saar River... had crossed the Saar on the 6th of December and we were a kind of a bulge into the “Siegfried Line” with the Saar River behind us and no bridge. We were in a very exposed position. The Division was probably no more than one third strength. In fact, I can never understand why we ever crossed the Saar River with no more people than we had in it. ‘Cause “F Company”, I was with “F Company” and with us attached to it there were only 45 people in the entire Company.

HAYES: Oh my God... because...

HOGG: There should have been 187 people in a full-strength Rifle Company.

HAYES: And, what happened? They were just shot-up?

HOGG: Just shot-up. Yeah.

HAYES: And no replacements had come in...

HOGG: No replacements. We crossed the Moselle River and got into a terrific battle (inaudible) around the north side of Metz and then other things that had happened to us when we had been attached to the 10th Armored Division. We had no major replacements. There was a rumor floating that “K Company” had 13 men in it. That Division was terribly shot-up like that. The Regimen, when we finally did attack, across the railroad tracks into Dillingen, proper, on the 4th day, they said there were a thousand men in Aachen, which is riverside, and that included all of the “358 Infantry Regimen”, including the “Battalion of 359th”... a Company of Engineers and Company of something else and still only a thousand men, in that town. Why they ever did that with a Division shot-up like that, I don’t know... it is said that they were going to send us across the River, the whole Division on a “Regimental Front”, each Regimen on a Battalion Front and Battalions on Company Fronts, but it didn’t work out that way. They sent the Division across on a Division Front. But still, they took the town!

HAYES: (exclaim)

HOGG: That was the amazing part of it, they still managed to get through and take that whole town... about 50,000... it was a good size city... Dillingen was...

HAYES: 50,000.

HOGG: ...people...

HAYES: ... residents and the Germans were putting up a tremendous resistance there? They were going to fight it out?

HOGG: ...they tried... the German Army... of course, the civilians had all disappeared. They were all in the Von Paffin (sp?) Caves which were across the River. They’d all left the city. This is the thing about the War over in Europe... saw very few civilians in combat areas. Seriously. They all left. They’d go hide in the woods or somewhere. I don’t know where they went. But, it was true in Normandy, I think I only saw about 3 or 4 civilians in the month and a half we were in Normandy.

HAYES: Wow.

HOGG: And the fighting across from the Moselle to... into the Saar, there were no civilians at all... Disappeared.

HAYES: They were smart.

HOGG: They’re smart. This is not true of places like Viet Nam and uh... Iraq. The civilians don’t leave and they end-up being causalities. And, then people come unglued, “ Oh, you’re killing civilians.” But, I don’t know why the mind set of those people is... is like it is? They don’t seem to have sense enough to stay out of harm’s way... and I don’t understand why. In Falluja, the reports here, when they first entered into that so-called truce or cease-fire, why somebody said something like 60,000 I think... people had left. Which was... but, still there were a lot of them still in the city and they’re going to get hurt.

HAYES: Well... but in the town you’re talking about that battle, Dillin...

HOGG: Dillingen.

HAYES: Dillingen. And, what was the role of your Platoon, in that?

HOGG: Well, we were attached... the first four days, we were attached to the Rifle Company and “F Company” and Second Battalion below (?) the “pillboxes”. And, then we didn’t have anything to do the rest of the (inaudible).

HAYES: So, were you, yourself, blowing “pillboxes”?

HOGG: No... the Squad I was in, just didn’t happened to... the “pillboxes” were taken... were taken by “E Company” and “G Company” which was the First and Third Squad. But Second... we were with “F Company” and we didn’t... there was one “pillbox” that we took but we didn’t have to take it. “F Company” people just got up there and knocked on the door and said, “Come on out.” (laughter) ...and they came on out. Which, is what happened with the nine “pillboxes”. They only blew three of them.

HAYES: Oh.

HOGG: The other six just gave up. ‘Cause there’s no reason for them not to give up. There not going to... the three that didn’t give up initially, two of them they had to blow the first time... I guess there was a “Non-Com” in there and that’s why they resisted. But, after the first blow, they gave up. The other one, they had to blow it, twice. There was an Officer in that one. But after those doors come off of there, the second time, why they gave up. They had no choice because “pillboxes”... that’s the reason that Patton called the Siegfried Line... “a monument to man’s stupidity” (laughter) ... because they were real easy to take as long as you didn’t have outside snipers or outside people... a “pillbox” was the easiest thing in the world to take. ‘Cause you just take a couple of good shots with rifles and set them off a hundred yards or so away from it and they can slip up that close to it. A “pillbox” had a little opening about that long (gestures with hands 10”) and about that wide (again, 5”). They had a slide that they could put across there to keep... and then you‘d start shooting into that pillbox and they had to close up that little window or those slugs get to richoceting around inside that concrete (laughs) inside the “pillbox”. So, they’d buttoned them up. And, they’re real easy to button up and you could walk right up to that “pillbox”. Walk around it and of course, the backside... the door was on the backside... you lob a grenade over. Then the Germans out there, if they had a door open they’d have to close the door and then you could walk around... somebody usually with a “Tommy” gun... you’d stick it around a corner and spray it down with the “Tommy” gun and keep the door closed... that’s the point to keep that door closed. Then you’d put a charge down there with about... 18 pound of “composition 2” is what you would use... with about a 4” fuse on it and then you’d pull the fuse and duck around the corner. All you had to do was get around the corner, it’d blow the door off. And then there was an interior door, with a little corridor in there and then an interior door, another 3” thick door...

ZARBOCK: A “pillbox” like that is really very efficient if you’re on the prairie and surrounded by Indians who’ve got bows and arrows (laughter)... Other than that, they’re just absolutely... (inaudible)... I mean they’re... (inaudible, everyone talking at once)

HOGG: ... snipers... and their artillery. Why, you can... people inside can... are safe... they’re not going to get taken... But still they’re not going to do anything...

ZARBOCK: Right.

HOGG: ...’cause the minute they open that door... (makes gesture with his hand to simulate a gun)... you can start shooting (laughs)... you don’t want to be inside a concrete room when somebody is shooting in the windows (makes circular gesture with hand)... those slugs just richocet around all over the inside of that room (laughs).

HAYES: All right, we’re going to just take a quick “break”, here.

TAPE #2

HAYES: Why don’t you re-introduce our second tape here, Paul.

ZARBOCK: There are two Interviewers on Tape #2, Sherman Hayes, Librarian, Randall Library, University of North Carolina at Wilmington. I’m Paul Zarbock, an Adjunctive Staff person, here. Sir, what is your name?

HOGG: Mervin Hogg.

ZARBOCK: Ok. And, its spelled Ho...

HOGG: ...gg. Two “g’s”.

ZARBOCK: And, your first name is spelled?

HOGG: Mervin, M-e-r-v-i-n. Ok.

HAYES: “Take two”. Well we’re going here now... You pulled back from that River and the Germans didn’t come forward, then?

HOGG: No... they were.. the High Command was afraid... like I say, the “Battle of the Bulge” had already started on the 16th, they pulled us back on the 21st. And, the High Command was afraid that the Germans were going to send in a “pincers (?) movement” around Luxembourg. And, that they might come right through our area because that... the Saar River, where we were, and the Metz area, is a corridor that Armies like to pass through. There’s quite a history about the city of Metz and that particular corridor. And, so they pulled us back across the Saar. They didn’t want us sitting out exposed like that (inaudible) went into a defensive position and stayed there through Christmas week.

ZARBOCK: Speaking of exposed, I understand that according to data... records, it was the coldest winter in European history. Do you remember it?

HOGG: I remember it when we got up in January, yes. It wasn’t all that cold where we were. There had been some snow, here and there. But, the ground wasn’t really frozen. When we crossed the Saar River, the temperature was in the 40’s, I guess.

HAYES: Oh.

HOGG: Wet, nasty, like that... But...

HAYES: This is December...

HOGG: ... it wasn’t really all that cold. It wasn’t till it was after Christmas that it got cold. And, it started to freeze and then early in January, first week in January, why they packed-up the whole Division, they sent in a lot of replacements... this is one of the reasons why I was kind of glad to have gotten out of the 63rd Division because I had heard that there was a report that that Division had been about wiped-out in the “Colmar Pocket”. It was one of the 7th Army Divisions and had gotten trashed and a lot of 63rd Division people were transferred-up into the 90th Division as replacements. I didn’t get to talk to any of them but uh... there were... I figured, well, if I wasn’t in that 2nd Battalion Headquarter’s Company, I was probably very fortunate that I volunteered. You’re not supposed to volunteer... but that was one time... well, now I’m glad I volunteered (laughter).

HAYES: Volunteered.

HOGG: ...but, then it about the first week in January, they moved us out. They blacked-out everything on the Division. All the vehicle identification was blacked-out. Then we took off up into the Bulge. They didn’t want the Germans to know the 90th Division was moving into the Bulge. And they went up there with the Third Corps and proceeded to... get into that one, hot and heavy.

HAYES: So, you ended up fighting in the “Battle of the Bulge”, then?

HOGG: Uh huh. Yeah.

HAYES: And, what was involved there. Were you a defensive or going back on the offensive?

HOGG: No, the Division went... straight into the defensive when it got in there. Went in on a rather narrow front. There was a rumor I heard that we went in alongside, I think it was, the 25th Division, and in the 25th Division, somebody told our Division Commander that, “You’re lucky if you can get 200 yards a day!”. First day, the Division advanced 2 miles (laughs). But, it was a ... it was a tough Division, there’s no question. We ended-up being Patton’s favorite Infantry Division. That’s were we got the nickname, “Tough Hombres”.

HAYES: What was your role then in this conflict, then, what again...?

HOGG: We really didn’t have much of anything to do in the Bulge. We just never got... it was very, very cold. The day that we moved was terribly cold. And, we were drove up there in open trucks and tried to keep as warm as we could but it was really quite miserable... very cold up there until into February before the thaw came.

HAYES: So you were following the “Front”, always ready to go and do mine clearing?

HOGG: What ever we were called on to do. We ended-up being uh... attached to I Company when this incident occurred, that I talked about previously, and we’d been attached to 3rd Battalion one time on a run that uh... ‘case they wanted us and needed us, they didn’t know if they would or not. They really didn’t know when they might need a Mine Platoon...

HAYES: Right. Right.

HOGG: ...so, we were always somewhere available and if they needed us why, they wanted us in a hurry.

HAYES: Now, would they ever see you as an Infantry Support and just throw you into the fight?

HOGG: Yes. Yes, we did when we crossed the Moselle River. One of the first things we did when we crossed that day, it was on the 9th of November, they moved us into a little town that was between two of the Battalions, down in the cut between the hills, and they moved us into that town to intercept any German Patrols that might come down through there. Which on did. Which we did intercept and took them prisoner. Had (?) kept them overnight until they managed to evacuate them. But, we were used sometimes like that. And, before they crossed the Moselle, they moved us into a little town, Auviant (?), which is right down on the Moselle River, for the same purpose, in case German Patrols got across the River and decided to come through there because the Rifle Battalions were all up on the hill, behind the River, and there were ways of getting through. There was a cut just down the bottom end of town and they wanted us in there, too, to intercept any Germans Patrols that might come in through there. They used us for that sort of thing, from time to time.

HAYES: Yeah, you were kind of a utility player, if needed be...

HOGG: Very much so.

HAYES: Very much...

HOGG: Very much so. We did a little bit of everything.

HAYES: ...a little bit of everything (laughs)...

HOGG: Going across France, they put us out at different intersections to direct traffic...

HAYES: Oh!

HOGG: ...in case any Regimental vehicles came through, “Tell them to go this way...”. And, I had several experiences. They put me out... well, I was without... I can remember at least two places, some of them... I don’t know if it was more than that... two I can remember very distinctly. I never saw a Regimental vehicle, any time, on any intersection that I was ever put on to direct Regimental vehicles. I never saw, in fact, another Division vehicle at either one of those places. One of them, I didn’t see any vehicles at all. All I saw, all day long, was a French farmer and his daughter and they had a bottle of wine that they wanted to bring to me. And, we finally communicated well enough to find out... I found out that he wanted me to have the wine but he wanted the bottle back. So, I emptied my canteen, poured the wine in (laughter) the canteen and gave him his bottle back and they left. (laughter) Another one of those intersections, a very terrible intersection, it was a... the road came down the side of a hill and then there was another road that forked-off and went down this way and that old 20th Corps was doing this (gestures around with his hand). They set me out there early that morning and with no way vehicles could go in both directions around that intersection. I ended-up out there directing traffic. I had quite a a time that day and, again, the whole 20th Corps, I think, was going down there but nooo... 90th Division! (laughs) I never saw (inaudible) Regimental vehicle, all day long. (laughter) So it was good planning or something. I don’t know.

HAYES: So, you were in charge, at that intersection.

HOGG: I was in charge (he nods dramatically) at that intersection.

HAYES: Did they listen to you or not?

HOGG: Yeah, oh yeah. They were real happy I was out there. An “MP” showed-up in the afternoon, you know, and I just kept on directing traffic. But, I didn’t trust that MP to be able to handle what was going on. I had learned, by then, to handle that stuff. Tanks would come down there. One of the first ones came down, ended up in a ditch. Fortunately, there was a Sergeant on it and he backed him up and got him out of the ditch pretty quickly. And, he says, “That’s the third one... I started out with seven tanks in Cherborg... and that’s the third one that’s stuck (laughs) back up the road, the other four kept going.” Of course, now this was near Chateau Terre (?) which was well on the east side of Paris and those tanks had come all the way from Cherborg and they’re still heading for “the Front”. They were replacement tanks they were trying to get up to “the Front”. I learned how to get a tank out of a ditch. (laughter)

HAYES: You learned how to get a tank...

HOGG: And, I had one get in a ditch. That same ditch. I backed him up and got him out of there, quick (laughs)!

HAYES: You learned many talents while you were in the Army.

HOGG: I did. I wasn’t trained for any of them (laughter).

HAYES: Now, we’re back to the Bulge and... did it start to peter-out, in other words, did the speed pick up then? Your Division is starting to push the Germans back, at this point?

HOGG: Yeah. In uh... I guess, around the end of February, the first of March, it finally had pushed the Bulge out completely... no longer there. And, we crossed a couple more Rivers and then we took off.

HAYES: Were you still loosing men though, regularly, like you were talking about? I mean...

HOGG: No, no... of course, the casualties had pretty well stopped completely by the time we got through to the Bulge and taken up to Auchland (?). And, then a little bit... its in that Regimental book. It explains that. Got across the Orne River and the Kyll River and uh.... then we broke through “the German Line”, whatever there was, and we were on our way then.. Went on headed southeast, crossed the Moselle River, again, below Koblenz...

HAYES: Ok.

HOGG: ... And headed for Mainz. Took Mainz and moved on south a little further and the 5th Infantry Division did continue across from Metz straight across the Palatinate, towards the Rhine. We went up, by way of the Bulge, and came back down but the 5th had crossed the Rhine River. We crossed on their bridge head (?). We got across, why then we took off northeast.

HAYES: But are you still going ahead of this whole process or have they figured that mines were no longer the issue.

HOGG: There were no mines, now. We were going so fast the Germans didn’t have a chance to put any mines down. Very, very seldom. We just didn’t run into anymore.

HAYES: Because it was their territory.

HOGG: Yeah. We were in Germany, then. We went... we got across the Rhine River. It was wide open.

HAYES: No resistance you mean?

HOGG: We ran into a little resistance... a tank or two... when we crossed the Main River between Frankfurt and Hanau. But once when got across that thing why there was a little sporadic resistance here and there but uh... nothing that amounted to anything. The Division, when we got over into Thyrgia, why uh... Patton again, he was lucky... because he liked to leave his northern flanks wide open. And, he didn’t again going across Germany, he did it going across France and he did it again going across Germany. At about “400”, we heard “SS” managed to get in behind the Division, 90th Division, and then there was another Division following us. And, they got in behind both of them and cut the cable, the communication cable. So the Division had... the only communication the Division had with Corps Rear was one radio... about a hundred-mile range and that radio they had to pull up on top of a hill and they needed somebody to guard it so you know who they grabbed to guard it...

HAYES: Oh know!

HOGG: (laughs) ... so we spent a couple days guarding that radio. The first day, we were very lucky. There was a nice big chat... chateau, up there on the hill, kind of a lodge thing, with one woman up there as caretaker. And we moved in up there, woods all around it with deer in it. And one of the boys shot a couple deer. Skinned them out and had them hanging out in front of the place. Woman came out and saw that and said, “Don’t you know, that’s against the law!” (laughs)

HAYES: Yeah, right. You were “the law” (laughs).

HOGG: Well, we had deer meat for a couple of days. Well, when that was over why we kept on going until when got to Flossenburg, well, Hof, Germany was the first place. When we got into Hof there were a lot of hospitals in there, military hospitals, and they had us guard one of them, the Squad I was in. And, that’s where the Company Commander got real mad at me. I was an acting Squad Leader, at the time, but there were only seven of us in the Squad. This one hospital had three entrances, had a wall around the outside and three little entrances... and the wall and he wanted two men on each entrances from six o’clock in the morning until eight o’clock at night standing at “parade rest”. (exclamation) Well, now you figure six, three “two-man” guard posts with seven people, standing at “parade rest”... that’s twelve hours, for fourteen hours... that equates to twelve hours a day, standing out there at “parade rest”. Well there wasn’t any way I was going to make those clowns in that Squad... I was just a PFC, myself, there wasn’t any way I was going to make those guys stand there at “parade rest”. Every time the Captain came around, he find them sitting on their helmets. (laughs) He’d raise hell with them. But, he didn’t like me very much for that. I never did get “Stripes” until after the War and he was gone.

HAYES: But, “parade rest” would have been almost “at attention”... you mean standing with your legs spread and the weapon at a certain uh... that would have been near impossible, I think.

HOGG: Yeah, it was ridiculous. In fact, its contrary to military regulations but you don’t argue about things like that under times like that... you just set down on you helmet (laughs).

HAYES: And you get (laughter makes words inaudible) “Fire me, if you want... send me home!”. They couldn’t break you much further than you were, right?

HOGG: No.

HAYES: And what was the condition in the hospital. These were actual hospitals... where there were German...

HOGG: Convalescent hospital mostly... German military wounded, mostly... I guess all of them from the “Eastern Front”.

HAYES: Wow.

HOGG: We ended up guarding the hospitals. And, then after that we ended-up guarding the... well they sent us to the concentration camp at... Flossenburg that we liberated. We were there for a day.

HAYES: You saw that then?

HOGG: Oh yeah.

HAYES: Do you want...

HOGG: In fact, I was talking to a fellow, when we went overseas, in 2000, when we had that group that went over to Germany... there was one of the inmates at Flossenburg, he was a fifteen year old kid at the time, he came down to Newark Airport and met with us and uh... I got to meet him. He was there at the time I was there... and talking to him... a couple people that I remember talking to, he remembered... he knew who they were.

HAYES: Wow. So what was that like? What happened. Tell us about that concentration camp.

HOGG: I... (shakes his head) did not go looking.

HAYES: All right, then.

HOGG: I knew better than to go in. Some of the fellows went in to some of those barracks and what they said was... terrible conditions in there. But, I knew better than to go looking around in those barracks... I just didn’t want to see it.

HAYES: But, you...

HOGG: I was back... they sent me back to a watchtower back in the back the camp and that’s where I just about all my time.

HAYES: But, you knew what it was... this...

HOGG: Oh, yeah.

HAYES: ...it was an extermination camp, as far as...

HOGG: Well, it was not one of the extermination camps, Auschwitz, but it amounted to the same thing. There were about, I guess, 1400 people in the camp, at the time. And, it was typhus in there.

HAYES: Oh, God.

HOGG: Of course, that’s one of the reasons the German soldiers stayed out of the barracks. They were afraid to get typhus, themselves. They stayed out of those barracks. It was pretty miserable stuff.

HAYES: Did you see any of the people who came out then? Were you able to help any of the people who came out...

HOGG: I was up in the watchtower. It was one man who came around. I understand now... talking to Jack when we were up there in Newark, he was Czechoslovakian and he spoke English quite well and I don’t know what it was... and he was... what it... he wanted to write history and philosopher was his goal. And he came around and he asked if he could come up there in the watchtower with me... “Sure, come on up.” And he sketched what he could see. He didn’t have a camera... he had to... just with pad and sketch the scene from that watchtower. And, he told me a little about the history of the camp.

ZARBOCK: What were you suppose to do in that... what were your duties in that watchtower?

HOGG: I don’t know. I was just told to go up there. (laughs) Nobody else knew what I was supposed to, either (laughter).

ZARBOCK: You know, you had a very unusual military career.

HOGG: (nods)

HAYES: Or, maybe very typical, I don’t know. Its...

HOGG: No, its rather unusual. (laughs) I think of that Platoon and I think of “McHales Navy”. And, I’m glad we didn’t have a PT Boat in the South Pacific... (laughter) because I don’t know what we would have done. That Platoon was a bunch of characters, I tell ya’... they were all right guys but they were characters... they were.

HAYES: Were the Germans surrendering to your group in large numbers, at that point? Or...

HOGG: Oh yeah. At that time... we’re going into Hof, Germany there some Germans standing out on the highway, going like this (he does a hitchhiking gesture with his hand)... trying to get back into the POW Camp. We’d pass them by...

HAYES: Really?

HOGG: There was some shooting going on in there. The book remarks about some fighting going on in Hof. I think a lot of the fighting, though, was... that first night, was the warehouse, because uh... a sniper had taken a shot at some GI out on the street and he responded as they normally do, with a smoke grenade or a rifle. The white phosphorus grenades are real good for setting buildings on fire. And he set the building on fire. Later on that night, everybody found out what the building was. It was a small arms ammunition warehouse. They woke me up for guard duty about eleven o’clock, that night, and it sounded like the Battle of the Bulge had started again... (laughs) more popping going on... than you can imagine. But, it burnt-down that warehouse.

ZARBOCK: But, military order and discipline was really breaking down in the German Army.

HOGG: I wouldn’t say it was breaking down...uh... if... I don’t know exactly what you mean by that...

HAYES: I mean there was no...

HOGG: ...there were... the Officers were... there were so (?) few Officers and Non-coms, that... and stragglers... most of these people were stragglers that somehow had gotten separated from their Units or Officers and Non-coms. They didn’t know what to do, other than surrender. They gave up. Now, Officers... if there were an Officer around... the group of people... you could expect to get a fight. Or, Non-coms you could expect Non-coms to do that, too. German Non-coms were good, too. And, if they had people why, they would unless it was quite obvious ...

ZARBOCK: But an Officer...

HOGG: ... there was no point in doing it.

HAYES: Alright.

HOGG: But, the 11th Panzer Division was still operating in the area at that time and they finally surrendered to the 90th just a few days before “VE Day”. But, uh... they were still operating. The SS was still operating right there, in places. There were Cadet Schools that had Cadets out... and some of those were... pretty fero...

HAYES: So you were not in a relaxed mode.

HOGG: No... no.

HAYES: You really assumed.....

HOGG: ...the particular Platoon that I was in... somehow we escaped all of this. There was fighting going on. But, where we happened to be... whenever we happened to be there, there wasn’t anything.

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: And uh... (laughs) it was real strange. But uh... I never realized that there was much fighting going on there in April... the end of April, the first of May, as there actually was. But, there was some going on.

HAYES: But, I think your experience was probably common. There was pockets...

HOGG: Oh yeah.

HAYES: ... and then there was empty and then there was people surrendering and then there was people fighting. It was a very mix uh...

HOGG: Very mixed... mixed-up situation.

HAYES: And what was the goal. To get... to penetrate through the border, as far as you could?

HOGG: Well, we had heard, at the time, that Hof, Germany was the Third Army “war objective”. Now, nobody else seems to know that. I’ve talked to people in the Association and none of them had heard that. But, Hof was where we were supposed to meet the Russians.

HAYES: Hmm.

HOGG: This was the “grand plan”. But, we got there early and the Russians got there late, one or the other. Well, Hof was a few miles from the Czech border, in Germany. When we got there why, we essentially stopped. We had orders not to cross into... cross the border into what used to be Czechoslovakia. You have to understand now that Czechoslovakia had that "Sudatenland". And, back in 1939, I guess, is why... why... is when uh... the Sudatenland was taken-over completely by Germany and actually became an integral part of Germany.

HAYES: Right.

HOGG: We stopped short of the Sudatenland and we.. because Roosevelt had made an agreement with Stalin that Czechoslovakia would be Russian.

HAYES: Right.

HOGG: But, then apparently somebody decided, “Well, now wait a minute, this Sudetenland is part of Germany, so we have no problem going into it.”. So, then we were ordered to go ahead on in to Germany. And, then elements of the 90th Division were the first ones to cross that border. They gave... got credit for being the first Unit to actually sever Germany in half. And, we moved on in to the Sudetenland. Got into some CG (?)... I don’t know if we... well, we got into Pilsen. We couldn’t go to Prague because Prague wasn’t in that part. We were told to stay out of Prague. And, the Prague radio had been taken-over by civilians who were screaming for help. But, we couldn’t go. And, they had all kinds of people over there in the Third Army you know were just itching to go to Prague... who couldn’t go to Prague. So we ended-up on “VE Day” in the Sudetenland.

HAYES: Now, tell us about “VE Day”... was... did it really stop or was there still resistance after that? I mean, it’s nice to say, “Here’s “VE Day”.” But was...

HOGG: It stopped.

HAYES: It really stopped?

HOGG: It stopped. It stopped in a way you... that is hard to believe, but it stopped. Far as we were concerned anyway. As far as the Russians, I don’t know, if they were... still had pockets of resistance. They could very well have... because they didn’t want Russians... they wanted to get away from the Russians, as fast as they could. This is one of the things where we were on “VE Day”... where I was at the time, we were guarding an SS Convalescent Hospital, in a little town. It was called Vereichenstein (sp?) was the name of it. It’s a German name and I thought we were in Germany. We were fourteen miles from Division CP, nobody around us that I knew of... the Platoon was in town all by itself. We had 140 SS in there. And, 7 of us guarding them. (laughter) And, I think they were better armed than we were (laughs). But, they were so afraid of the Russians that they were being very... docile.

HAYES: Uh hmm.

HOGG: Uh, one of them took off. He lived not very far away from it. And, the nurse, that was acting as an interpreter came down to me one day and was very, very upset about it. And, he was afraid we were going to react terribly to this guy that had taken-off. He’d “Followed Peter” is the expression the German Army was using at the time, instead of AWOL.

HAYES: What did they call it?

HOGG: “Following Peter”.

HAYES: “Following Peter”?

HOGG: Yeah. And its... I don’t know why. We call them “AWOL’s”. But they... and she said that the fellow had “Followed Peter”. I said, “What!” (laughs).

(laughter)

HAYES: Whose Peter? (laughter)

HOGG: We finally got it straightened-out for I knew what she meant. I said, “Well, its his problem. If he doesn’t get back here and he gets picked-up... he’s going to go to the Russians.” I don’t know if he ever got back there or not but hopefully he did, for him... I guess they never turned them over... they were... I kept telling them... they were kept worried about it, “Are we going to be turned-over to the Russians?”. I says, “No, you’re prisoners of the United States Army and you will not be turned-over to the Russians.” I hope that was true... (inaudible).

HAYES: How long did you stay there then, doing that duty?

HOGG: Oh, we left about the 10th or 11th of May, a couple of days after VE Day, they pulled us out of there.

HAYES: Did somebody come in to guard that group?

HOGG: Somebody else came in from... took over for us. I don’t know what happened to them. Of course, the night of the 9th, the next night, why, just after dark, jeeps from the 4th Infantry... 4th Armored Division came up there and said, “We got a present for you.” And, it was a General and his Staff and about 250 stragglers from the 10th Panzer Division that had been running all the way from Hungary to try to get to Germany and get away from the Russians.

HAYES: Wow...

HOGG: And this SS Captain who could speak English quite well, acting an Interpreter, “We have to get to Germany. We have to get to Germany...” I thought we was in Germany. And, I said, “You’re in Germany.” And I says, “You’re staying here tonight. We’ll put your Officers up there in the hospital and your Commandant in there to take care of them and we’ll take your men down to the Gymnasium that’s on further downtown.

HAYES: And, there’s seven people, here?

HOGG: Hmm?

HAYES: You have seven soldiers?

HOGG: Yeah... there was seven of us... Yeah.

HAYES: And, now we’re talking about 600, 800?

HOGG: Yeah, well there were 140 SS, 250 Weimar ...

HAYES: God...

HOGG: ...in town. Well, the whole Platoon was in town but there was just seven of us there at that hospital.

HAYES: Right.

HOGG: There was another Squad, was down at the Burgermeister’s Office and the other Squad was guarding a Maternity Hospital... the girlfriends of the SS and... (laughs)

HAYES: We’re talking about a hundred guys guarding 400 hundred people..

HOGG: Yeah.

HAYES: But, they’d given up they weren’t going to... you know...

HOGG: Well, I never saw those other two Squads. I was up there... God, I think we had a Squad Leader at the time who was a fellow that’d been a Squad Leader in the Gun (?) Platoon... been wounded and come back and they sent him out there. But, he didn’t want to have anything to do with the Mine Platoon, either. He didn’t want to have anything to do with that Squad so I was running the thing. I don’t know what that German Captain thought when he had a PFC a Private here giving all the orders (laughs).

HAYES: He didn’t...

HOGG: I knew what had to be done, so... I did it (laughs). It was just that simple. We weren’t about to take those people, after dark, fourteen miles back to Division... We weren’t about to do that.

HAYES: But the next day, they wanted to go... they wanted to...

HOGG: Packed them up... got in the jeep with them and we led them on back to Division CP. Turned them over to the MP’s back there in “PW Camp”.

HAYES: But, now they’d made it back to Germany, then, for sure... right?

HOGG: Those did.

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: ...there was no question. That was Weimar (?). That wasn’t SS. There was just one SS Captain with them. But, they no doubt got back. I don’t know what happened to the people in the hospital?

HAYES: ...‘cause when the final settlement came, did that part go back to Russia then, as far as you know?

HOGG: Oh yeah. It wasn’t very long before uh... Americans moved completely out of that Sudatonland and we set-up “Occupation Duty” just across the border, in Germany.

HAYES: Now... that’s what you were doing then? After “VE Day” how...

HOGG: Yeah, we were on “Occupation Duty” there ‘til they started sending... ‘til after “VJ Day”.

HAYES: So what kind of time frame were... how long were you then... kind of permanent guard duty, then? Several months, or... ?

HOGG: Well, “VJ Day” was in August, we moved back there... back... probably around the 11th or 12th of May.

HAYES: Wow.

HOGG: And then until after “VJ Day”, in August, why we set-up a brick factory, Schwartzenfeld (?), Germany. We had two or three guard plost... posts we had to man, one of them was an American-built monastery and this is one of the anomalies of things that always confused me about Germany. They had this monastery and they had a little chemistry lab in there that had been in Berlin. And, it got bombed so badly that they moved the chem lab down into this monastery. Two priests in the monastery, one of them was a fellow by the name Cook who’d been born and raised in Sharon (?), Pennsylvania (laughs). And, I could never figure-out why an American priest was in that monastery, in Germany, through that whole War? And, never figured it out (laughs).

ZARBOCK: Did you see anything that was average in (inaudible)...

HOGG: No.

ZARBOCK: ... (inaudible) you’re like “Alice in Wonderland”.

HAYES: So, you did Guard Duty and then what happened with “VJ Day”? Did the word come out and everybody knew then, I mean?

HOGG: I remember I was... I don’t remember “VJ Day” specifically, or if it was the day the atom bomb was dropped, the first one. Uh... I can’t distinguish between two...

HAYES: Right. Right. Very close...

HOGG: ... in time. But uh... a lot of people, of course, were very, very surprised about that atom bomb. But, I wasn’t because when I was a kid, before I got into the Army, in the Thirties, late Thirties, there were a number of articles came out about nuclear power. And, this was a thing that I had studied, I was real curious about. I studied it and, when that atom bomb went off I figured, “Well, ok... its part of this thing.” And, “VG”... “VJ Day” came why, it come almost as an anti-climax. I was in bed and somebody said, “Hey, the Germ... the Japs are surrendering!” I said, “Ok.”, rolled-over and went back to sleep. (chuckle) (laughter)

HAYES: And, so how much longer before you got to come home, then?

HOGG: Oh, it was... let’s see, that was near the end of August. Sometime in September, they started to breakdown the Division of people. They had a number... a point system that they... and you... so many years in Service was worth so many points and I guess, in combat, your combat badge (?) may have been worth some points. If you had a “Purple Heart”, or any kind of citation like that, it was worth five points and uh...

HAYES: So, you must have had a lot of points though because you‘d been in here.

HOGG: I had seventy-five... is what I had...

HAYES: That’s a long... you were in for...

HOGG: ...about two years... I just been in two years. A lot of those people been in longer than I had. I had a “Bronze Star” so that gave me five points.

HAYES: Now what was...

HOGG: This is somewhere towards the end of September, why...

HAYES: What was the “Bronze Star” for?

HOGG: “Meritorius service”. It was... I think orders came... every Platoon was supposed to have somebody get some sort of citation and I got elected because uh... I was “The Professor”, they called me “The Professor”. They had nicknames for most of the people in the Platoon (laughs).

HAYES: Why were you called “The Professor”?

HOGG: Well, I found out one fellow gave me that nickname... you see, my father was...

HAYES: ... was a Teacher.

HOGG: ... teaching at the University of Pittsburgh Medical School.

HAYES: Right.

HOGG: And, they had my name and I was getting a little newsletter from a Medical School (laughter)... so he’d see them. He saw that newsletter one time and started calling me “The Professor” and it stuck (laughs).

HAYES: (laughs) “The Professor”.

HOGG: The Captain... he left, Lieutenant Hile (sp?) took over the Company, he was one of the nicer of the Officers, one that I got along with fairly well. I was still a Buck Private, or uh... not a Private, a PFC. And, then the Captain left one day and Lieutenant Hile put me in for Sergeant’s stripes the next day. I got them two or three days later. The day after I got them, the order came down, “No more promotions.” (laughs)

HAYES: You got them! So you ended-up as a what Sergeant?

HOGG: Buck Sergeant, three-stripe. But, uh... I didn’t have any more duties other than one real nice duty they gave me. For some reason or other, somebody thought I was the only Sergeant in the Company they could trust. And, Anti-tank Company was told to mount a “road guard”... Somebody driving up and down the road between this little town we were in and Nablem (sp?), up the road about fifteen miles... a Regimental CP was up there. And, we were supposed to run up and down this route all day, trying to keep people from speeding. Uh, we’d stop a few people going too fast and we had to report into the Duty Officer at Regimental CP, between 8:00 and 9:00pm. The rest of the day the jeep was ours... go anywhere we wanted, do anything we wanted to do. We had (inaudible) wheels (laughs)... so that was the best... that lasted about a week. (laughter) And, they took me out of there and sent me up to the Czech Border, in an I&R Platoon and broke-up the Anti-Tank Platoon completely. Everybody had gone. Everybody else... so they split up the Company and sent us out. Went to an I&R Platoon for about a week.

HAYES: What’s an “I&R Platoon”?

HOGG: “Intelligence and Reconnaisance”.

HAYES: Platoon?

HOGG: Yeah. It’s a Regimental Headquarters Platoon... Regi... yeah, Regimental Headquarters Company - Platoon Division... Regimental Headquarters Company. So, I spent a week out there, with Rank and Non-com and nothing to do (laughs). Then, it finally came my turn to leave and so we left and went down to a camp down near Munich. And, they had an Artillery Battalion down there that was a so-called “Category 4”. It was one that was scheduled to be completely disbanded. And, they filled it up with all this Infantry out of Regiment... 700 or 800 of us, I guess.

HAYES: Wow.

HOGG: And uh... then we went from there to “Camp New York”, which was outside of Reims, right out of Soissons.

HAYES: And, by truck... usually this is where you’re going?

HOGG: By truck.

HAYES: And, what was the countryside... going through there... devastated?

HOGG: Oh, no. From Munich... it was all pretty... we went by “Autobahn” all the way to eastern Germany... western Germany. Crossed... I don’t know where we crossed the Rhine but I know we went through Nancy, when we got into France. But uh... no, when we went on to Paris “on pass”... is when we saw most of the devastation. That was in July. Got back to Paris “on pass”. And, we went into Frankfurt and Frankfurt was devastated, of course. Just shells of buildings, block after block after block. Frankfurt took a real beating. But, it was some of those bigger cities in Germany... of course, Dresden got it and some of the others further up the Rhine River and the Rohr Valley... they got a terrible beating. But, most of the rest of the towns... they... they didn’t get damaged very much... because there wasn’t any fighting in Germany. Very little Infantry fighting except right around Saar and the Siegfried Line... was most of all the fighting. Once we got past that Siegfried Line, the second time, why, it was “go for broke” to win!

HAYES: Interesting. And, you came back by boat, again from...?

HOGG: Yeah, that was another one of those experiences (laughs)...

HAYES: Go ahead, we’ve got time, we’ve got tape.

HOGG: Now we... finally they had a big jam-up of people trying to get home...

HAYES: I’m sure.

HOGG: We got into “New York” in September... that Camp in uh... near Reims, in September, late September, but there were a lot of higher people with more points, the way had got jammed-up in England and they were trying to get them cleared-out. So we stayed in that Camp until into November... all the way through the month of October into the first of November before we finally got out.

HAYES: Doing nothing, right?

HOGG: Doing nothing, just playing cards. We played cards and we played cards, in that (inaudible)...

HAYES: You couldn’t get “Leave”, I mean they didn’t want you to swamp...?

HOGG: No, we could go about any place we wanted. We could go into Reims or Soissons... we could wander around the woods, where ever we wanted to go. There were no Guards on the Camp. No anything. You’d go anywhere you wanted to go and where you could get to... They had transportation into Reims and we went in there one time. And, never went back because it was... terrible mess. GI’s in that town. A lot of them were misbehaving terribly It’s a funny thing about the combat people. You could tell the combat people from the non-combat people just by the way they behaved after the War was over, in a town like that. The combat people, they’d had all the fight taken out of them. In fact it was... if you remember that Maulden (?) cartoon about the Guerre-troopers (?). If you ever see that thing, why, Willie and Joe sitting there and these two guys, dressed-up like Paratroopers, strutting down the street and one of them said, “A couple of Guerre-troopers, I haven’t seen anybody looking for a fight (?)”. Upset the 82nd Airborne Division, something terribly. They thought he was panning the 82nd (laughs). He wasn’t. I know what he was doing when he said that, when he wrote that. But... the reason we never went back to Reims... it was just a...

HAYES: ... because they were fighting each other, you mean there were fights and brawls...

HOGG: Oh, yeah. They were just... I don’t know... “Cutting-up” the way people will. A lot of Americans when... this is one of the things I think a lot of people don’t understand about the Second World War. It took so many people away from their homes and sent them off somewhere else where they no longer had the restraints that they normally had at home and it turned them into something that wasn’t very nice. But, uh... you could tell from the stories you’d hear, the further behind the Line they got the more abuse that you would hear about, of people. But, up on the Front, they wouldn’t even... we wouldn’t even kick people out of their homes... if we had to get into a place where people were there, Infantry wouldn’t even kick the people out they’d tell them, “Go back in that room and stay there and behave yourself.” But, they wouldn’t kick them out. You get back behind Italian or Regimental CP (CT?), they kicked the people out of the homes... (inaudible) no telling... It was that kind of a thing. You just...

HAYES: So, you’re ready to go but you’re sitting on your hands.

HOGG: Sitting there until...

HAYES: Finally what, a boat?

HOGG: They finally loaded us up...

HAYES: A ship?

HOGG: ...on cattle trucks and took us to Le Harve, to another Camp, “Philip Morris”, outside of Le Harve. And, we stayed there just about a week. And, then the odyssey home started... took us on down into Le Harve. Well, they had finally gotten the Port of Le Harve open to where they could get ships in and out. And, of course, the Navy had converted her, had added a lot of bunks, to that a number of their Cruisers, especially Cruisers. I don’t know if they used Destroyers for it or not, but I think all the Cruisers had. And, the S... the “USS Savannah”, light Cruiser that uh... had gotten into Le Harve and they took us down there and put us on that “Savannah”. And, we started out. Well, it was the first one of the Navy ships to leave Le Harve, for New York. And, of course, this was a big deal. “Photo op” operation and the newspaper people were on the “Savannah”. Well, while we’re steaming out of Le Harve, here come “The Augusta”. And, “The Augusta” was the primary ship Cruiser of the Navy. It was FDR’s favorite ship and all that, you know. Very fast Cruiser, coming in to load up. Well, we got into the middle of the Atlantic and ran into a storm and broke a plate loose on the front of the thing and broke an oil line. Spewed oil all up over the side of the ship. And, they turned the ship into the wind and into the seas and we’re progressing at about 5 knots, afraid to do further damage to the ship. They were in a little bit of a predicament. We were just moving about 5 knots... I was up on deck, next morning, I heard one Swabie say to another that he heard that the Navigator had gotten drunk, headed the ship for Greenland, and told the Captain he was lost (laughs). Well, down in the Mess Hall... Or down in... Mess Hall... it was the Galley, they had a chart up there showing the progress of the ship. And, sure enough, that morning... here this thing is starting going straight north towards Greenland. And, of course, that slowed us down. We finally got out of the storm and headed on towards New York. And, we couldn’t get to New York in time to get into the harbor, in daylight. So I headed up on deck and looked at the back and here the wake of the ship is one great big circle, you know. Well I knew, we all knew that “The Augusta” had done this. Well, we were the first out of Le Harve, had newspaper people on board. We were the first to get to New York. We had to be! Well, “The Augusta” was out there doing that, too (make circling gesture with hand). And, I know what those people, on board, were thinking if they found out they were waiting for “The Savannah” (laughs). That was about the end of my military experience. We got off the boat, got into... well, they took us to Kilmer first... put us on a train and took us to Camp Kilmer. Took us off the train, put us in the Rec Hall, fed us, gave us a big spiel about re-upping in... re-enlisting. They didn’t do that. We were staying out on the deck... on the dock... or, the railroad platform and I said something about, “I guess will be here for a week or more.” The Major was standing close to me, an Italian Commander, and he said, “You’ll be out of here before the days over!” I thought to myself, “Now that’s one way to find out when we’re going to leave.” (laughs) They put us on a train and took us to Indiantown Gap. That was the... 28th of November. 28th of November we got off the ship.

HAYES: Now, when was “VE Day”, then now?

HOGG: “VE Day”?

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: 8th of May.

HAYES: So by... wow, that’s still... that’s a long time. Staying clear to the end of November and you’re still not out.

HOGG: Yeah, of course, “VJ Day” was the key, then.

HAYES: Yeah, because they weren’t going to let anybody out until that uh...

HOGG: No. No. They... we heard we were scheduled to go to Japan.

HAYES: Oh jeez...

HOGG: Third Army was going to be the “invasion force” in Japan. The 90th would be number one going in. (inaudible) the Third Army was, we would have been. You can bet on that... but uh... we were real glad, I mean real glad that that Japanese War was over.

HAYES: And, so where... do they just say, “Good bye and on your way...”, or do they help you or I mean... ?

HOGG: No, we... took us to Indiantown Gap... run us through the process... gave us a physical... our “Discharges”. And we got there... we landed in New York on the 28th, I guess we got to Indiantown Gap either... on the 29th or...

HAYES: That’s in New York, Indiantown Gap?

HOGG: In Pennsylvania, near Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. By the 2nd of December, why, I was out. Went into Harrisburg, got on the train, headed for home. Broke. Had enough money for a train ticket. That’s all. Didn’t have enough money for cab fare (laughs).

HAYES: And, your folks hadn’t seen you for more than... what, three years?

HOGG: From January of ‘44. It was just a year, not quite a year, that I’d been on furlough in January of ‘44. Oh, no... that... it was a year and a half, almost two years.

HAYES: Almost two years.

HOGG: But, it was in January of ‘44, December of ‘45.

HAYES: Was there a celebration on your return, you know...?

HOGG: Not really. Got home about eleven o’clock that night.

HAYES: And, after the War, you did become a Professor? You went to school? Did you go to...

HOGG: I went down to “Ole Miss” because my father had been offered a position as Chairman of the Anatomy Department at the University of Mississippi, later on that year. And, he and I drove down there in August and got housing arranged and everything else. And, my brother and I went down... whole family, other than my mother and sister. My father and my brother and I drove down there. Entered the University down there and went to school for a while. HAYES: “GI Bill” and...?

HOGG: Yeah. That was the best thing that ever happened. The only good thing, I think, that come out of that War was that GI Bill. Taught me a few things, too.

HAYES: And, later in life you were more an Engineer, right? I mean that... you talked, earlier, about working for GE. So, that was more your...

HOGG: Westinghouse.

HAYES: Westinghouse, yeah...

HOGG: Westinghouse. Yeah, I got up to Baltimore. Dropped-out of school. Got a job with a power company up there, Pennsylvania Water & Power Company, as a Draftsman. And I picked-up on it, learned what they were doing. Quite adept at control... utility control. And, uh... until that company was merged into Pennsylvania Power & Light. And, then split me off from there and ended-up down in Birmingham, Alabama, for a year. Then went to Duke Power Company, in Charlotte. Worked there for about ten years. That was when I went up to Westinghouse and went to work for Nuclear Steam Supply Division up there, again designing control boards for nuclear power plants.

HAYES: Interesting.

HOGG: And, I ended up getting out of there and went down to Brown & Root (?) working down here. Its when I got into construction down here with Brown & Root (?) on the Brunswick Plant.

HAYES: Oh, you were... actually did work on the Brunswick Plant?

HOGG: Uh... hmm.

HAYES: Oh, that’s interesting.

HOGG: Worked down there for six years.

HAYES: Excellent.

HOGG: Construction.

HAYES: (to Zarbock) Would you ask your telling question, here. We’re in good shape.

ZARBOCK: Um... I usually end-up asking the question, of people, we’ve interviewed on this military contribution, what did you learn from all this... all the time you spent in combat, all the people you met, all the sounds that you heard, all the smells?

HOGG: Oh, I learned how people react to that sort of stuff and that’s probably the biggest thing, I learned. You learn something about yourself. How you react to that kind of thing.

ZARBOCK: Give me an illustration.

HOGG: Oh, how you react from artillery, how other people act... Artillery is the thing that frightens people worse than anything else.

ZARBOCK: Yeah.

HOGG: Small arms fire doesn’t bother people but artillery will. Some people can take it reasonably well. Some people come apart. We had one fellow in the Platoon that absolutely could not stand it. He’d just become a shivering idiot, under artillery fire. Its about the only way I can express it. He just couldn’t handle it. But, when it was over, it was over. Small arms fire didn’t bother him. He could go and do anything else. But once that artillery fire started, why, he was useless. But, uh... never worried about him any other time. Dillingen we got into it. And, with “F Company”, he was perfectly all right. When we attacked, across the railroad tracks, he was ok. We got pinned-down one time, that day... that fourth day. We were pinned-down under a railroad platform, all day long. Uh... Squad Leader, and Cross (?) and myself, and there were three Riflemen from “F Company”. And, we got pinned-down... there was a sniper up in some buildings across a park area and we couldn’t get out. A stairway went up to the top of the platform but the Ammunition Carrier was killed by a sniper and uh... left the tripod of the machine gun up there. And, they tried to hook it with a hoop but they couldn’t stick their thumb up through that hole without that sniper taking a shoot at it and just about hitting it. But some of the rest of them got into the Pillbox, at the end of the platform. And, that was when the Germans came back with a tank and captured about fifteen people out of that Company. Fortunately, I wasn’t one of them. The rest of them took-off, back across the railroad tracks. Two tanks come up there, one on either end of the platform and tried to shoot them. But, they were moving... tracers were all over the place. They didn’t hit anybody. The railroad tracks were about... six of them across... there was kind of a small railroad yard. And, they got across there... the most amazing thing that I ever saw happen. We had a fellow in the Company we called “Teeter-Totter” for a reason (laughs)... he was an old fellow. Physically, I don’t know why they ever let him go overseas. And, he just absolutely shouldn’t be... (laughter) We nicknamed him in the Platoon, “Teeter-Totter”. And, he was over there, attached again to “F Ccmpany”, with a bazooka. But, he was carrying a bazooka around and wearing an overcoat... December... wearing overshoes, had an M-1 rifle. And, when he saw these guys get across the railroad tracks, he didn’t go with them. But, he decided he try it after they got through. And, he started...

Well, the two tanks had stopped. And, those machine gun’s tracers were just knee-high. They followed him across that railroad track. Perfect cross-fire, you ever saw. He disappeared under a car, on the other side, down a little (?) bank. Well, I asked him sometime later, talking to him I said, “Did they ever get... hit you or anything?”. He said they put one bullet hole in the tail of his overcoat (laughs). I... we couldn’t believe it. There wasn’t anything we could do. We were underneath that platform when he started going. He didn’t know we were there. If he had known we were there he’d never had tried that.

HAYES: Yeah.

HOGG: But, he thought he was over there all by himself. And, then come dark, why, the Squad Leader and “F Company” Sergeant, why, he decided he’d go down to the Pillbox because he thought our people were still in that Pillbox. He decided he’d go down there and talk to the Lietuenant and see what he wanted us to do. Well, he went down there and about a minute later, the machine gun cut loose tracers and he come back in that hole just a panting (pants). He said he stuck his face up that hole and a white face said something in German (laughs). (laughter) And, we scared the tanks. They pulled the tanks back. They were afraid... they knew we were Americans over there and they were afraid we’d get that tank. So, we slipped across those railroad tracks, a little bit later. All six of us got back ok (laughs).

HAYES: Sounds to me like you learned to survive! That’s what...

HOGG: You learn that, too. You learn a lot of things about it and most of them are because somebody else got hurt... bad. And, you learn that in Normandy. We learned not to dig a foxhole along a hedgerow that was perpendicular to the front. Never do that. You always dig one that is behind the hedgerow that is parallel to the front because of tree burst. If you’re in a hole that’s parallel if a shell hits that tree up there, it’ll get you. But, if you’re behind it, why, you’ve got the protection. You learn that. You also learn that when you cross a river, in an assault boat, you’ve got to be prepared to shed everything you’re wearing... your rifle, your coat, everything. And, if you have K-rations, stick those K-rations down inside your shirt because those things are very light and they’re packaged in wax boxes and they just act like a pair of water wings... keep you afloat, you know...

HAYES: God...

HOGG: ...because we had almost a whole Platoon wiped-out in the Saar River... boat broke in half.

HAYES: Yeah. All right, listen, thank you very much!